Spanking kids
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23-06-2011, 02:32 PM
RE: Spanking kids
(23-06-2011 10:19 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  And Time Outs are a joke.
Why BC?

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23-06-2011, 02:42 PM
RE: Spanking kids
(23-06-2011 02:32 PM)The_observer Wrote:  
(23-06-2011 10:19 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  And Time Outs are a joke.
Why BC?

Were you ever given a Time Out as a child? I either got sent to my room, away from my parents, surrounded by all my stuff... or I would be forced to stand in the corner facing the wall... which wasn't punishment to me because I spent half my childhood daydreaming. So the corner became my "thinking chair," which was great for the development of my philosophical side, but didn't really reinforce any behavioral decisions.

(The corner was also inches away from a heating grate in the floor, so I used that to pretend I was being thrown into a volcano)

My step-dad used a belt, so I made sure not to disobey him. Plus being subjected to pain was analogous to the raising of say Trojan children. It's barbaric in nature, but you become a man and develop confidence in yourself from withstanding the circumstances. I'm not advocating hitting your child anywhere but his backside. It's the message and threat of being paddled that enforce discipline, not the actual amount of physical pain inflicted (so the goal isn't to "beat it into your child").

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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23-06-2011, 02:59 PM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2011 03:07 PM by Observer.)
RE: Spanking kids
(23-06-2011 10:19 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Were you ever given a Time Out as a child? I either got sent to my room, away from my parents, surrounded by all my stuff... or I would be forced to stand in the corner facing the wall... which wasn't punishment to me because I spent half my childhood daydreaming. So the corner became my "thinking chair," which was great for the development of my philosophical side, but didn't really reinforce any behavioral decisions.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to call that "Anecdotal evidence" BC...

Edit: Do you still see your step-dad often?

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23-06-2011, 03:44 PM
RE: Spanking kids
I've spanked my kid twice, both times when she was two. (She's 14 now, and adept at karate, so I wouldn't even think of it! LOL) Once when she tried to stick a fork in a light socket, and once when she started playing with the dials on the stove. Those were the only two times I wanted my child to be terrified. Both situations could badly hust or kill her, and that is the ONLY thing I ever wanted my kid to be afraid of.
I don't do punishment as much as consequence. Make a mess in the kitchen (beyond what is acceptable of course) you clean the kitchen AND the living room. That type of thing. When there's not something specific to corrolate, I just give her an extra chore. That means it takes away precious "money chores". (She has chores that she's expected to do because we all contribute, but also has the option of doing extra chores for money. I don't believe in allowance. You want money, earn it like the rest of us) It can be a little tougher with younger kids, but the point is to have them DO something, instead of not do something. Grounding is silly. The last thing I want is a pissed off kid hanging around the house. That's punishing ME, not her. Screw that. She can go outside and weed the garden/shovel the walk/clean up dog poop/or some other type of slave labor! That way she has something to associate with the offense, instead of having time to simmer over it.

And if you don't think it would work, just come on over and meet my kid. She is polite, outgoing, has a good sense of responsibility, and most of the time she'll come in after a "consequence" and be smiling. That's because she feels a sense of accomplishment after the task is complete, and she knows that once the consequences are paid, it's over.
One last thing. It's also important to teach that doing something positive has positive consequences. I don't want my kid to think of the word consequence as something bad. Just a result of what you've done.

Hows that for a ramble?

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23-06-2011, 06:53 PM
RE: Spanking kids
(23-06-2011 02:59 PM)The_observer Wrote:  
(23-06-2011 10:19 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Were you ever given a Time Out as a child? I either got sent to my room, away from my parents, surrounded by all my stuff... or I would be forced to stand in the corner facing the wall... which wasn't punishment to me because I spent half my childhood daydreaming. So the corner became my "thinking chair," which was great for the development of my philosophical side, but didn't really reinforce any behavioral decisions.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to call that "Anecdotal evidence" BC...

Edit: Do you still see your step-dad often?

Well have there been any actual studies done about this? Where they have a spanking group, a non-spanking group, and a control group? And they discovered that the spanking group was prone to violence? I mean, I got beaten, and am pretty much a nonviolent guy. True, I was in the army and had a job as a bouncer, but I always hated the violent aspects of both. I'm just a nerd who like to make people laugh.

And yes my step-dad is still married to my mom, but it's just a lot of uncomfortable silences when we're in the same room.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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23-06-2011, 08:13 PM
RE: Spanking kids
I'm like to state my opinion on this matter really quick; I don't condone it, but I'm skeptical that it'll cause horrible, irreversible damage. And I do realize that child rearing is hard, and spanking is a lot more of an easy punishment that some of the other recommend ways. That being said...

(23-06-2011 06:53 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Well have there been any actual studies done about this? Where they have a spanking group, a non-spanking group, and a control group? And they discovered that the spanking group was prone to violence?

Yes, but the problem is that it's next to impossible to keep other variables constant in a family, so a lot of the studies have been questionable. It's hard to say what experiences make a person the person they are. But, apparently, Catherine Taylor did a rather detailed study showing that corporal punishment does promote aggression later on life. Not sure the details, I'll read more into it, but that's both sides from what I'm reading; Studies do show an increase in violence, but the methods to test such things are always suspect.

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24-06-2011, 05:14 AM
RE: Spanking kids
I will not even read all the comments and article, just state my opinion. Not all children are the same, you can talk to some, you can't with other. I don't see what's the big deal, if a kid is really wild and doesn't listen, to spank him a little. Now don't get me wrong, I fell like Buddy Christ, there is spanking and there is beating. But I can tell you from my experience, my parents rarely put their hands on me, but I knew when I deserved to get slapped and I remembered that for good. If my parents never slapped me when I deserved I would now be aggressive and arrogant asshole, but they have put me in my place and I am grateful for that. I repeat, don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone should beat or hit their kids, but some sort of punishment if ok in appropriate situations. Sometimes you need to have some punishment that a kid will remember and words or "no TV and dinner" are not the kind of punishment anyone will remember more than a few hours.

My examples my own, every kid is deferent and every parent is different, so this can not be applied to all. That is what makes a good parent, knowing when and how to punish/reward your kid. So this whole "to spank or not to spank" thing is very hard to generalize. I've seen parents who never sad a bad word to their kids and never even think about spanking. One of those kids is not going to school, but he goes to Internet clubs to play games whole day long, while his mother is worried sick, because she does not know where her kid is. And when she catches him she talks to him instead of bitch-slap him. I've seen that kid staring at his mother while she is crying and trying to talk to him, but the look in his eyes was telling: "Yeah, yeah, are you done already, tomorrow I will do the same, you can talk all you want..." And tomorrow he has done the same thing. Now, if she had slapped or spanked him in front of whole Internet club, he wouldn't dare to do the same thing tomorrow, because he could expect to get slapped again if he repeats the same thing. This way he will listen to her for 5 minutes, and go home like nothing happened. Kid was around 10 years old.

So I say once again, you can not generalize in these things, some kids are terrible some are normal, some parents know how to treat their kids, some don't. Some situations require more convincing methods, some require just talking... This is very complex question and it is up to parents to choose wisely.

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24-06-2011, 06:13 AM
RE: Spanking kids
I agree with Filox's feelings, though most child behaviors (kids have kind of set behaviors one kid to the other is different in certain ways) will understand non-spanking punishment as long as it is presented well as punishment. Time out is pointless in a house where the parents are always busy and the child is generally playing with themselves. Send them to the corner and almost nothing changes. But in a house where there is a parent around often playing with the child, time out can be one of the strongest punishments possible, because during time out they are separated from the loving environment they expect. I was left alone as a child almost constantly, so there was no way that I was going to be properly raised. Luckily for my parents I was a very timid and insightful child, and I raised myself with minimal setbacks.

Good parenting depends on the parents, if you can't be around to be a good parent then the only way you can have a decent home is to do the fast answers. Spanking came about because the child would be left with the mother all day and the dad would come home and if he wanted to make his view clear he'd force it (often on both). The initial view of spanking was the way to instill a hierarchy within the family.

When people talk about disrespectful kids being those who were raised without spankings I think of all the guys in prison who fear their mother. You know those guys were spanked and they see it as a direct correlation to their mother, but everything else in life they still live without cares.

Spanking doesn't raise children on it's own, the raising has everything to do with the parent, and that means that the parent can choose another method.

The main issue to me with child raising nowadays is more the understanding of our new complex family, nowadays the parents will most likely all work so there will be time away from the family. To me the best thing that you can do for your children in our very difficult complex society is to give them a respect and appreciation for their family. Children behave best when they respect, and that can come from many different ways of raising your child.

I don't have children and probably can't, I'm around my siblings children from time to time, but my brother's kids are ones that I must be very detached from because he will come beat the shit out of me if he decides I made them "gay". Their oldest is the pure example of a rebellious kid who doesn't care about physical punishment. Their oldest has decided he will hold the power in the family and he does this by continuing to act badly despite punishment. This is a tough type of child to raise. I think and it's the view of many of my family members (family members often share a lot of child rearing views) that the best way to handle this child is to let him try doing what he wants for a while so he can see why he shouldn't perform these behaviors. Actions like not wanting to eat when told (he's 6 and cries any time a parent sets food in front of him) are sometimes best rectified by giving him some time to be in control of the situation so he realizes why he's being given food. He'll stop rebelling only if he gains a respect for his parents and the view that they want to help him. Currently he sees his parents as limiting and restricting. No amount of beatings can convince him otherwise in this case.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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24-06-2011, 08:36 AM
RE: Spanking kids
(23-06-2011 06:53 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Well have there been any actual studies done about this?
I guess setting up a study with a control group is not only difficult in a sense like Ashley mentioned, but it will also be rather unethical...
Quote:Slap! Slap! Slap!
Autch daddy, please that hurts!
I know, but it's for science sweety-pie.
Slap! Slap!
Confused

What does exist however are such studies on the contrary. Studies where positive parenting is evaluated over a larger time. These studies found that raising your child in a positive manner is more likely to result in emotional stable adults.

One of those studies can be found here.

Now, as a skeptic, I have some remarks myself...
  1. play close attention to the italic part of my above statement. There is no guarantee that you will succeed. but this counts for as good as everything in "the soft sector"
  2. Positive parenting only works if your consequent in your approach. If you slack on the program, results tend to entropy rather quick (people who trained animals in a positive manner may be aware of this (myself for example.) As trainer, not as animal ;-)
  3. When you have a hard to raise child on your hand, you cant just step into a positive program from one day to another. If you are not into it from the start, there is some getting used to. I think the example Filox gave is a good illustration about that.


@Stark

About that allowance...
At first I thought that was a good idea to let her earn the allowance, but... Aren't you afraid that, after a time, she will only do something when there is a reward?

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24-06-2011, 09:53 AM
RE: Spanking kids
I tend to disagree with positive punishments like spanking because they are often ineffective if they are not done properly. It is too easy to give too much or too little force, which will not correct behaviour either way. Plus, punishment must be done immediately after the undesired behaviour otherwise the child may not fully understand why he/she is being punished (depending on the age of the child, of course).

Parenting can be done without positive punishment, but it requires a lot of time and effort. My parents never laid a hand on me or my brother, and we have both been good kids, teens, and now adults. When I was a kid, I hated being grounded. 'Cause when we were grounded, we were grounded, usually for a week. That meant no going to the show with friends, no sleepovers on weekends, going to bed early, etc. I must admit, I learned my lesson more quickly than my brother, but we both eventually learned Tongue The thing is though, we both grew up with a healthy respect for our parents, and that counted for more than anything. My brother cannot believe some of the things his friends say to their parents. He said to our mom that there's no way he would ever say anything like that to her [face] Tongue because he knows he would get in shit for it.


@Stark:
I kind of disagree about the allowance thing. I was given an allowance as a kid and if I wanted anything extra (i.e. something that wasn't food or clothing or a birthday/christmas present), then I would have to save up my allowance and buy it myself. That taught me how to manage my money (and now I'm a university student with zero debt). My brother and I had to do chores around the house, not because we wouldn't get our allowance (we got it regardless), but because that's what was expected of us. We were expected to contribute our part and pitch in around the house whenever we could.

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