Spanking kids
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05-07-2011, 06:24 PM
RE: Spanking kids
(05-07-2011 11:01 AM)sy2502 Wrote:  Allow me a few comments on your post.
1) Of course a little slap on the wrist isn't the same of a punch in the face. But I can tell you from personal experience that parents who do punch their kids in the face don't understand what the fuss is about. In their minds THEY ARE NOT BEING ABUSIVE. They don't think what they do is over the top, they think they are doing their kids a favor. So if all we could ever count on was a little slap on the wrist, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But we can't. Because there are plenty of abusive parents out there. Because nobody is keeping them in check. Because it is human nature to prevaricate over the weaker ESPECIALLY when we can get away with it.

Again, I'm not defending punching a child. I am talking about your kid acting like a dick in the grocery store so you grab him and give him 2-3 spanks on the butt. Enough to let him know that you mean business. I didn't say backhand the kid into a pile of broken glass and continue on your way, uncaring. I promote spanking, but if I saw a child get blasted in the face in public, I would be inclined to blast the parent in the face.


Quote:2) Take all the things you mentioned are perfectly fine if done to a kid and think in your mind of doing them to an adult. I don't know if you are male of female, I'll assume for the sake of the discussion that you are male. Do you shove and push your wife away if she doesn't move when you tell her to? Do you grab her roughly by the wrist and pull her out of a room if she says something you don't like? Do you slap her when she doesn't do what you say? No? Why not? How about your colleagues? Is that how you treat them when they don't do what you like? Why not? How about the clerk at the store, do you reach over and slap them if they don't ring your stuff quick enough or make a mistake? Why not? Once you really think about it, you should quickly realize that you are making what's called "special pleading" in the case of your kid. You are saying it's fine to do to your kid something you wouldn't do to anybody else.

It's not about special pleading, it's about mental maturity. You could sit your child down and give a brilliant dissertation about the moral implications of stealing his sister's toys that was so well spoken it would bring nations to their knees in tears, and 15 minutes later your kid is stealing his sister's toys again. Whereas a sharp "Stop it!" and a butt paddle will get the message through. Your punishments evolve with his maturity. You know in movies when the high school bully won't listen to anyone because he's so immature that finally someone just gives him a right hook and he finally gets it? It's the same approach, only with an elevated method of physical punishment, since he has become more physically resilient.

Quote:3) Let's look around and really see how wonderful the past generation, the "spanked generation", is. We have 2 world wars, the Cold War, the Vietnam War, 2 Gulf Wars and Afganistan just to name a few. We have had a Depression and a recession. The Baby Boomers went from being stoned our of their heads with pot and LSD, and screwing everything on sight in the 60s to being stoned out of their heads with Vicodin and Oxycontin, and being the largest consumers of Viagra. They also carry horrific credit card debt and most of them haven't saved hardly anything for their retirement while their garages are so full of junk they bought when they didn't need it that they can't park their car in it. In one word, this generation of spanked kids has been probably more violent and greedy and superficial than any of the preceding ones. Hardly entitled to patronize the newer generations and call them "pussies".

That's an incredibly invalid argument. You're blaming the wars of the world on the discipline methods of parents? Following that argument, we can then conclude that being "soft" on a child doesn't work either since the newest generation is 8 years into multiple wars with different countries. The reason Hitler was power hungry and anti-semitic was because he was spanked as a child?

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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06-07-2011, 03:36 AM
RE: Spanking kids
Back to my posts, if you failed to see I am always a bit sarcastic and I tend to draw my conclusions from your previous posts, so I just make some of your answers more obvious and exaggerated to make a point. If you failed to see that in the part where I was saying about throwing a kid under a car, then I will not discuss things with you anymore. I mean, really people.

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06-07-2011, 07:40 AM
RE: Spanking kids
I agree Monkey, generation Y (where I came in =p 1982-1996~) is a pretty accepting group who have expanded their pursuits more than the age before, though generation X (~1965-1981) is still hogging the actual job market so generation Y has a lot of people just living with friends. The internet generation (Generation Z 1997-now) is extremely accepting, if not overly.

I speak with classes and do a lot of youth stuff. Most kids I run into have more information than they know what to do with.As long as they don't grow up in an extremely intolerant home there seems to be little they won't accept as normal. And yes this worldliness is leading to most of them shoving aside harsh religions as they are perfectly aware of other options. Most of the younger crowd I meet up with do way too much, cause my generation had such a high focus on being involved in their children's lives. These kids are swamped with activities and seem to almost never stop multitasking. It's also funny to see how little they can understand pre-90's stuff. Got into an argument with one over childhood films we laughed a lot after that one =p. It can be fun to get old sometimes. I understand my mom's generation and appreciate the things she grew up with >.>.

While it's shown that some kids are raised to not be prepared for the world, a majority of the children who are in their teens now are actually a hell of a lot more prepared than my generation. Before high school they already have an itinerary of plans. I'd say that the generations do progress and I would call generation Y the pussy generation if you need one BC =p I am an early Generation Y, but this group is nothing but whiners with "feelings" =p

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06-07-2011, 10:42 AM
RE: Spanking kids
(05-07-2011 06:24 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  It's not about special pleading, it's about mental maturity. You could sit your child down and give a brilliant dissertation about the moral implications of stealing his sister's toys that was so well spoken it would bring nations to their knees in tears, and 15 minutes later your kid is stealing his sister's toys again. Whereas a sharp "Stop it!" and a butt paddle will get the message through. Your punishments evolve with his maturity. You know in movies when the high school bully won't listen to anyone because he's so immature that finally someone just gives him a right hook and he finally gets it? It's the same approach, only with an elevated method of physical punishment, since he has become more physically resilient.
No, it really is special pleading. You say a child must be spanked because that's all he understands. Very well then, are you in favor of hitting mentally challenged individuals? How about elderly people, maybe with dementia? I hear they can be quite a handful! Maybe a couple of swift slaps will teach them a lesson? No? WHY NOT?

Quote:That's an incredibly invalid argument. You're blaming the wars of the world on the discipline methods of parents? Following that argument, we can then conclude that being "soft" on a child doesn't work either since the newest generation is 8 years into multiple wars with different countries. The reason Hitler was power hungry and anti-semitic was because he was spanked as a child?
It is a perfectly valid argument actually. You seemed to imply that "earlier generations were spanked and look how well they turned out, while instead look at current generations and how spoiled and morally bankrupt they are". No, sorry, earlier generations that received corporal punishment are just as spoiled and morally bankrupt. In fact, if anything, current generations, vapid and spoiled as they are, are much more tolerant of diversity, and they are generally uniformly against war. So maybe what you call "being pussies" isn't such a bad thing all considered? Maybe it will translate into less hate and intolerance, which is something we can all use?

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06-07-2011, 11:21 PM
RE: Spanking kids
(06-07-2011 10:42 AM)sy2502 Wrote:  No, it really is special pleading. You say a child must be spanked because that's all he understands. Very well then, are you in favor of hitting mentally challenged individuals? How about elderly people, maybe with dementia? I hear they can be quite a handful! Maybe a couple of swift slaps will teach them a lesson? No? WHY NOT?

Like I said, mental maturity not senility and dementia. Their brains aren't immature, in need of shaping. Their brains are broken, so with the mentally challenged and elderly, people stop trying to teach and just ignore. My aforementioned mother who was a babysitter now works at a nursing home for the mentally "vacant" so I also have experience in this. The ones that still retain a semblance of coherency and maturity can simply be talked to or verbally scolded. The rest are so far gone that it's sometimes necessary to strap them to a bed so they stop biting people. If verbal correction has no affect on the child, and/or old person, sometimes you have to resort to the physical correction.


Quote:It is a perfectly valid argument actually. You seemed to imply that "earlier generations were spanked and look how well they turned out, while instead look at current generations and how spoiled and morally bankrupt they are". No, sorry, earlier generations that received corporal punishment are just as spoiled and morally bankrupt. In fact, if anything, current generations, vapid and spoiled as they are, are much more tolerant of diversity, and they are generally uniformly against war. So maybe what you call "being pussies" isn't such a bad thing all considered? Maybe it will translate into less hate and intolerance, which is something we can all use?

Who do you think make up the million troops who've fought in the iraq and afghanistan wars? These unspanked children weren't against violence enough to not sign up for war. There were also many more war protesters in the Vietnam era than there are today. Peaceniks and hippies galore. I really don't see a correlation between childhood punishment and pro or anti war stances. If you're going to maintain this argument, you would need to provide some statistics or studies, rather than conjecture.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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07-07-2011, 06:49 AM
RE: Spanking kids
I'd like to see some stats on the voting preferences of people who were spanked as kids vs. those who were not spanked. Does the spanked crowd tend to vote more Republican because it goes with their views on authority? Or, do they grow up with S&M fantasies and their looser sexual mores push them to vote Democrat? I think maybe we need to spend large amounts of tax payer dollars to study this.

Anyway, back to the original point: like I said, I can generally get my kids to behave without ever having put a finger on them. And, my kids, while good kids, are not perfect angels. I'm not above screaming and threats. My youngest moves at his own pace and it is a slow pace indeed. The boy has been lapped by glaciers. On more than one occasion I've grabbed him under the arm and "helped" him walk a little faster to make the school bus. But, to get them to behave I find that a certain look or threats to take things away work just fine. This may be a bit pretentious to say, but I think a good parent who is paying attention to his kids can generally get them to listen without having to hit them. I see your point, but it's not the way I chose to manage my kids.

Oh, my wife once got so mad at my youngest that she smacked him on the butt, and pretty hard. He cried and then he lectured her on how that was not the proper way to get him to listen. It was pretty funny actually.

Now, let's move onto a better topic: spanking adults. Yea or nay? How much are you willing to pay for it and do you prefer the open hand spank or some kind of apparatus?

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07-07-2011, 08:39 AM
RE: Spanking kids
BC, I want to ask a quick question to clarify your position. Do you think spanking should be an just option for parents if they choose to use it, or something that should be endorsed for all parents(or at least those with unruly children) to ensure a generation that has a spine and are not wussies?

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07-07-2011, 11:16 AM
RE: Spanking kids
(06-07-2011 11:21 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Like I said, mental maturity not senility and dementia. Their brains aren't immature, in need of shaping.
LOL, IN NEED of slapping? Please!!! Can you even hear yourself?

Quote:If verbal correction has no affect on the child, and/or old person, sometimes you have to resort to the physical correction.
The problem is that you don't seem to even understand why a child won't listen to you. I suggest you read into the research of human development more. A small child's brain is INCAPABLE of correctly understanding cause and effect, long term planning, consequences, impulse control, etc. It's not that they don't want to, and you need to hit them to convince them. They simply can't. You can't slap a small child into developing long term planning any more than you can slap him into being able to digest solid food, or walk. Which is precisely why we see kids do something, be slapped, and go right back to doing it again. Now, these parents like to congratulate themselves that when they have slapped their kid enough time, they have actually TAUGHT the kid something, when in fact the brain of the kid simply, on its own and according to its own genetically hardwired timeline, improved its circuitry and made new connections. You didn't slap him into it any more than you slapped him into any other physical developmental change.

Quote:
Quote:It is a perfectly valid argument actually. You seemed to imply that "earlier generations were spanked and look how well they turned out, while instead look at current generations and how spoiled and morally bankrupt they are". No, sorry, earlier generations that received corporal punishment are just as spoiled and morally bankrupt. In fact, if anything, current generations, vapid and spoiled as they are, are much more tolerant of diversity, and they are generally uniformly against war. So maybe what you call "being pussies" isn't such a bad thing all considered? Maybe it will translate into less hate and intolerance, which is something we can all use?

Who do you think make up the million troops who've fought in the iraq and afghanistan wars? These unspanked children weren't against violence enough to not sign up for war.
Oh wait, I thought it was YOUR argument that all young people who weren't spanked are pussies. Are you already backtracking on that? I am glad!

Quote:There were also many more war protesters in the Vietnam era than there are today. Peaceniks and hippies galore. I really don't see a correlation between childhood punishment and pro or anti war stances. If you're going to maintain this argument, you would need to provide some statistics or studies, rather than conjecture.
You are the one that made the argument that the generations that were spanked were morally superior. I gave you counterarguments why they are not. Please give better support to your argument or admit you were wrong.

English is not my first language. If you think I am being mean, ask me. It could be just a wording problem.
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07-07-2011, 03:10 PM (This post was last modified: 07-07-2011 03:44 PM by Buddy Christ.)
RE: Spanking kids
(07-07-2011 08:39 AM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  BC, I want to ask a quick question to clarify your position. Do you think spanking should be an just option for parents if they choose to use it, or something that should be endorsed for all parents(or at least those with unruly children) to ensure a generation that has a spine and are not wussies?

That whole pussy generation thing wasn't necessarily about the spanking issue. I just realize that the new view of pure disgust that this culture now has on spanking stems from this overly protective, kid on a leash, stay in the plastic bubble so you don't get sick attitude we've developed. I believe spanking should be left up to the parent, and that if you choose to spank your kid, the world has no right to recoil in horror and call for child protective services. It's just spanking, it doesn't even hurt.


(07-07-2011 11:16 AM)sy2502 Wrote:  
(06-07-2011 11:21 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Like I said, mental maturity not senility and dementia. Their brains aren't immature, in need of shaping.
LOL, IN NEED of slapping? Please!!! Can you even hear yourself?

At this point, you're not even listening to me. You're hearing whatever you want to hear. Shaping ≠ Slapping. And calm down with the exclamation points and caps lock, this isn't a Yahoo News comment section.


Quote:The problem is that you don't seem to even understand why a child won't listen to you. I suggest you read into the research of human development more. A small child's brain is INCAPABLE of correctly understanding cause and effect, long term planning, consequences, impulse control, etc. It's not that they don't want to, and you need to hit them to convince them. They simply can't. You can't slap a small child into developing long term planning any more than you can slap him into being able to digest solid food, or walk. Which is precisely why we see kids do something, be slapped, and go right back to doing it again. Now, these parents like to congratulate themselves that when they have slapped their kid enough time, they have actually TAUGHT the kid something, when in fact the brain of the kid simply, on its own and according to its own genetically hardwired timeline, improved its circuitry and made new connections. You didn't slap him into it any more than you slapped him into any other physical developmental change.

A child is incapable of learning cause and effect and consequence? So you're telling me that a child who burns himself on a stove will continuously keep burning himself because he can't understand which actions result in punishment?


Quote:Oh wait, I thought it was YOUR argument that all young people who weren't spanked are pussies. Are you already backtracking on that? I am glad!

Swing and a miss, please reread and rethink.


Quote:You are the one that made the argument that the generations that were spanked were morally superior. I gave you counterarguments why they are not. Please give better support to your argument or admit you were wrong.

No. No I didn't. You have a very theist way of thinking, where you already have a conclusion in your head and you bend words to fit that viewpoint.

I was pointing out that an entire generation of spanked children are virtually no different than this new "safety generation." If spanking increases violent tendencies, we should expect to see a radical decline in crimes from then to now. The crime-to-spanking ratio would be declining in correlation.


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But violent crime was at an all time low in the 60's, peaked in the 90's and is now coming back down. So are we to believe that parents in the 90's were using pipes and lit cigarettes to punish their children? There are no scientific studies that would suggest spanking leads to violence.

Stop text-shouting, stop making things up, and approach this discussion with a level of maturity. I'm not threatening to come beat your child.


Sidenote: I was in a restaurant today and a child was running up and down the aisles screaming, while the mother kept yelling at him to stop it and the child gleefully ignored her. This thread popped into my head.

Edit: And now I just watched a show on this (not on purpose, this stuff keeps coincidentally happening). It was called Enraged, and it was about parents who verbally abuse their families all day and there wasn't a single incident of spanking or physical contact. Kids who get yelled at and called names their entire life are likely to grow up angry and violent themselves. I think the key word here is "abuse." You can verbally scold your child, you can occasionally spank your child, but if you are doing either to extremes, that's when the problems start.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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07-07-2011, 05:57 PM
RE: Spanking kids
(07-07-2011 03:10 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  
(07-07-2011 08:39 AM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  BC, I want to ask a quick question to clarify your position. Do you think spanking should be an just option for parents if they choose to use it, or something that should be endorsed for all parents(or at least those with unruly children) to ensure a generation that has a spine and are not wussies?

That whole pussy generation thing wasn't necessarily about the spanking issue. I just realize that the new view of pure disgust that this culture now has on spanking stems from this overly protective, kid on a leash, stay in the plastic bubble so you don't get sick attitude we've developed. I believe spanking should be left up to the parent, and that if you choose to spank your kid, the world has no right to recoil in horror and call for child protective services. It's just spanking, it doesn't even hurt.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

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