Spanking kids
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08-07-2011, 06:47 PM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2011 06:58 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Spanking kids
(07-07-2011 11:09 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  
(07-07-2011 07:51 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I never raised a hand to any of my 4 now adult children regardless of their behavior. I was always more worried about what resorting to physical correction might do to me than them. What if I liked it? Isolation, i.e. "timeouts" work. Humans are a social species. Wink

What if you isolate your child so much, they develop a permanent need for attention, becoming a socialite attention whore? This thread is helping me realize that too much of any certain type of punishment can lead to emotional neglect leading to problems. Yell at your child all day and you'll mess them up psychologically. Hit them all the time and they may become accustomed to violence. Put them in time out all day and they will crave attention. Moderation is the name of the game.

lol. Well thank god that didn't happen. I never yelled at them either. I do recall a number of stern looks and even more raised quizzical eyebrows and stark discussions. But again, I was always more worried about the effect that punitive behavior might have on me than them. I think you can be corrective without being punitive. I mean, I was.

(08-07-2011 08:32 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  BnW > Bare hand is more "intimate", but when it's time to get down to it, I prefer a riding crop with an experienced partner who knows their limits and wants to push them, and a leather "fly swatter" style for a less experienced partner who is into the idea but not nescessarily the pain.

Safeword? Gotta have a safeword.

(08-07-2011 11:21 AM)BnW Wrote:  There are now several of you where I know far more about you then was ever necessary.

Now you're just tempting me to post a picture of myself in the fundoshi my brother brought back from Japan. Wink


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09-07-2011, 06:55 AM
RE: Spanking kids
I try not to but into people's dialogue like this, but spanking is something that I never put much thought into, and BC did make some thought-provoking points. I really like to see this issue explored fully and right. That being said, sy2502, you are being somewhat hostile and rude. I really wouldn't blame BC for wanting to back out at this point, which would be a shame. So maybe you could tone down the insults a bit?

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09-07-2011, 11:10 AM
RE: Spanking kids
(09-07-2011 06:55 AM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  I try not to but into people's dialogue like this, but spanking is something that I never put much thought into, and BC did make some thought-provoking points. I really like to see this issue explored fully and right. That being said, sy2502, you are being somewhat hostile and rude. I really wouldn't blame BC for wanting to back out at this point, which would be a shame. So maybe you could tone down the insults a bit?

I actually WAS going to stop responding, due to a certain party's inability to have an adult conversation, but I'll give it one more shot. One more ad hominem, self-masturbatory response and I'm out though.


(08-07-2011 01:36 PM)sy2502 Wrote:  
(07-07-2011 03:10 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  At this point, you're not even listening to me. You're hearing whatever you want to hear. Shaping ≠ Slapping. And calm down with the exclamation points and caps lock, this isn't a Yahoo News comment section.
I see, so you have so badly run out of arguments that now you answer to how I write instead of to what I write! Give it up buddy, you don't have a leg to stand on.

Here's the thing. This isn't an argument between 12 year olds who are trying to get the last word in so they can claim "victory." There are no winners, because this isn't a contest, it's a civil (supposed to be anyways) discussion about pertinent issues. And when one of the participants in a discussions INSISTS ON TALKING LIKE THIS!!!!!!!! and ignores talking points so that he can shout his own, it derails the issue and distracts the readers from any valid points that were addressed. Calm. Down. And grow up.


Quote:LOL do you have kids? Have you ever actually seen kids play? They will in fact keep on doing things that hurt them over and over. Until, that is, their brain has made the connection. Some connections of course are made earlier than others. The burning thing for example. Of course if you want your child to make a mental connection about you similar to "the burning thing" be my guest. Some parents do like the idea of their kids cringing around them.

You may want to have your kids checked for a disorder. Rats can be taught relatively quickly to avoid the lever that shocks them and hit the lever that gives them a pellet. And no, I'm not suggesting burning children as a punishment. Once again, grow up and approach the conversation with a measure of maturity. This isn't Fox News.


Quote:You said, and I quote: "Spanking (and worse) was a very popular discipline technique back in the day and our parent's generation turned out relatively normal. Our generation has embraced the pussification of children."
If this statement doesn't say that the earlier, spanked generation is better than the current, pussified generation, I don't know what does. Well, I have told you what the society produced by the spanked generations has been. Not pretty. I also showed you that what you call "pussies" seem to be much more tolerant of minorities and gays, and that they embrace women's equality much more readily. If you call that "pussification" then we certainly need more pussification in this world.

First, how did you get "morally superior" out of "relatively normal?" Second, you didn't show me anything. You typed it on an internet forum, that doesn't show anyone anything. I provided my response to this, which you seem to have ignored. The spanked generation of old and the safety generation today exhibit the exact same reaction to violence. Violent crimes rates are inconsistent to the time line of spanking, and we have just as many wars and war protesters today as we did 40 years ago.


Quote:That spanking creates more aggressive children has been established by enough studies. A quick Internet search will help you find them. Here's a little help for you:
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/dis...id=2540224
"The findings were consistent with a socialization model in which higher levels of severity in parental punishment practices are associated with higher levels of children's subsequent aggression toward peers. Findings indicated that children who had been spanked evidenced levels of aggression that were higher than those who had not been spanked, and children who had been the objects of violent discipline became the most aggressive of all groups. Patterns were qualified by the sexes of the parent and child and subtypes of child aggression (reactive, bullying, and instrumental). The findings suggest that in spite of parents' goals, spanking fails to promote prosocial development and, instead, is associated with higher rates of aggression toward peers."

http://www.clickorlando.com/family/5330085/detail.html
"Children who are spanked are more likely to be anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in other ways, according to researchers in six countries."

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-09-16/healt...=PM:HEALTH
"Berlin and colleagues found that children who were spanked as 1-year-olds tended to behave more aggressively at age 2, and did not perform as well as other children on a test measuring thinking skills at age 3. The study is published in the journal Child Development."

I could go on, but something tells me you can use Internet yourself, and that when you say "There are no scientific studies that would suggest spanking leads to violence." what you really mean is "I want to believe there are no scientific studies that suggest spanking kids leads to violence".

Sigh. Despite your beliefs that google search produces "end all discussion" studies, it would help if you actually considered what you were posting. Your first link is the purchase page for the actual journal, and only gives us a sample paragraph and I remain somewhat skeptical because the sample pool was only 273 children and their determining factor was "who fought the most with the other children."

Your second link link is again not the study. Where are the proofs and statistics? It claims that children who are spanked have more anxiety. But it's method was to determine "how often the child worries." How exactly does one figure that out? I'm sure lots of kids are worried... about dragons and pirates and this God character their parents keep telling them about. The study also states that "In countries in which physical discipline was more common, children who were physically disciplined were less aggressive and less anxious than children who were physically disciplined in countries where physical discipline was rarely used."

And the third link was specifically for spanking your 1 and 2 year old child. Who spanks a child who can't even walk yet? I haven't specified what I mean by "children" when talking about spanking, but "The best use of spanking, Larzelere said, is in children between the ages of 2 and 6 when milder discipline tactics, such as time out, fail." That's a quote straight from the study you're using as your proof.

"Much of the research on the subject does not clearly demonstrate a causal link, Larzelere said. For example, in comparing studies, children who are spanked and children who are taken to psychologists both are more likely to have aggressive behavior later, he said."

Your links further suggest to me that it's not a black and white subject, which is why I was attempting to engage forum members in the discussion in the first place. Perhaps spanking does cause aggression, but being a dick and posting half-assed links is not persuasive evidence.


Quote:This is valid for you too, my friend. When the best you can do is say that the only way to shape a child's immature brain is to slap them, my response is going to go along the lines of "garbage in, garbage out". You have made many assertions about child educations that are not only baseless, but they are actively contradicted by studies. Now, my questions is: if several studies tell you that your slapping your child is detrimental, are you going to stop doing it?

Is this Bill O'Reilly? And again, stop substituting slapping for spanking. Having a pineapple rum cake is not equivalent to chugging a bottle of Malibu. I'm not talking about slapping, beating, or punching a child. 2-3 spanks on the butt with an open hand, used sparingly and in combination with other methods and verbal reinforcement to you child as to why he was spanked.

There's something terribly wrong with your thinking process. Everything in this world is not correctly seen through a dichotomic lens. There are things that humans should discuss amongst themselves, and no progress will ever be made if one side is more concerned with "winning" and image, rather than debate and resolution.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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09-07-2011, 11:35 AM
RE: Spanking kids
Very well said BC. I agree with nearly everything you said, the obvious exception being the spanking thing of course Wink

I remember once when I was younger watching a show on television that dealt with this very topic. I vaguely remember it being really in-depth with studies that actually made sense, but for the life of me I can't remember what it was and have yet to find it online. I will remain vigilant until I do. I don't even remember what the results were Blush

I definitely agree with the idea that this isn't a pissing contest, it's supposed to be an actual conversation presenting both sides of the discussion in a calm rational manner. BC may be completely insane, but you can't deny that he has handled himself rather elegantly in a discussion that probably has more people on the opposite side. Props to you BC.

To further illustrate my opinion on the spanking issue let me blather on some more.

While I may not personally be comfortable with the idea of spanking children, it stems from my belief that physically dominating over something so fragile seems unfair. Just as I think that mentally dominating someone who is clearly of inferior intelligence is unfair. When I talk to my little girl I try to do it in a way that she understands, so far it's worked rather well. I may be wrong, I hope I'm not. She's a smart little cookie and even though she can be a jerk sometimes, I think she's a really well behaved little pain in my ass. People tell me all the time how well behaved she is, how they are surprised at how she says please and thank you. It makes me proud.
I see the opposite side though, every time she does something that scares the piss out of me. I have the idea of spanking her until she remembers not to do it again. I think BC is right in saying that when used sparingly it can have a positive effect, such as remembering not to do something. It's like a shock to the system. I personally just can't bring myself to do it. I don't want her to look back and remember me hitting her. But I can see why people might want to cross into that territory. Not that I condone it, because like I said before I still think it is unfair.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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09-07-2011, 01:10 PM
RE: Spanking kids
I wanna join in the adult spanking topic!!!! Hand is always more intimate though usually the hands use in punishment is better for clawing, so sexy ~_^. But when you're really getting into the sex you need a good tool to spank with. Crops are indeed awesome choices though normally for me if the partner is less experienced, or more sensitive to pain a paddle is a good way to spread out the sensation. Leather is really the best way to go for spanking tools, and I'll always add some bare hand for getting in the mood =p.

And BnW how can you say we have less sexual mores just because we like to inflict a different pain than rough thrusting? =p. S&M is often a very ethical form of sexuality as the partners discuss their positions and lay out limits. The general non S&M relationship the dominant partner (normally male) just does what they want unless the submissive stops the sex. I would say it's pretty moral for the sexual activity to be very much about mutual benefit rather than a mechanical process. There are few times when in sex, that people have an egalitarian experience. Even switches will go to one side or the other as being in the middle is a very complicated and convoluted way to have sex.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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09-07-2011, 08:50 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2011 09:23 PM by sy2502.)
RE: Spanking kids
(09-07-2011 06:55 AM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  I try not to but into people's dialogue like this, but spanking is something that I never put much thought into, and BC did make some thought-provoking points. I really like to see this issue explored fully and right. That being said, sy2502, you are being somewhat hostile and rude. I really wouldn't blame BC for wanting to back out at this point, which would be a shame. So maybe you could tone down the insults a bit?

Can you point out which of my posts were insults?
(09-07-2011 11:10 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  And when one of the participants in a discussions INSISTS ON TALKING LIKE THIS!!!!!!!! and ignores talking points so that he can shout his own, it derails the issue and distracts the readers from any valid points that were addressed. Calm. Down. And grow up.
Again, you keep addressing how I write instead of what I write. I will ask again why you are doing that. Is it because you have run out of arguments to make? I have addressed everything you have said so far. You have addressed nothing of what I have said in return. Specifically
- That you make a false dichotomy where either one spanks his kids or they grow up to be little savages. That is patently wrong as we all know plenty of kids who've never been hit in their lives but are perfectly well behaved.
- That hitting kids is a special pleading since it is not excusable for any other member of society to hit anybody else, except, in you view, for parens to hit kids.
- That the inability of children to understand long term consequences, and their poor impulse control does not excuse hitting them for it any more than it is acceptable to hit mentally incompetent individuals like handicapped and dementia patients.
- That spanking hasn't produced a better society, in fact, children have been spanked since the beginning of the world and society sucks, so maybe it's reasonable to change parenting methods and see if things improve. I already pointed out that what you call "pussies" are in fact more tolerant individuals.
- That many studies (and please feel free to put in your own time for a change in educating yourself, instead of expecting me to do your homework) have shown detrimental effects from spanking.
- That corporal punishement simply negatively conditions the child to not do something for fear of pain, and teaches nothing of why something shouldn't be done. Consequently, the child learns to be better at not getting caught, instead of not doing wrong. Moreover since the only reason the child doesn't do something is fear of punishment, when he grows up and there's nobody there to spank him, it's reasonable to wonder what his behavior will be like.
- That it is in fact a good thing that small childen don't get permanent aversion through light pain, or we'd never learn anything. I made the example of learning to walk despite falling repeatedly. You have completely ignored this. I then pointed out that it takes some rather traumatic event to negatively condition a small child, which when willfully inflicted by the parent amounts to abuse, therefore only abusive punishment can have the desired effect. You have also ignored this part.

Quote:I provided my response to this, which you seem to have ignored. The spanked generation of old and the safety generation today exhibit the exact same reaction to violence. Violent crimes rates are inconsistent to the time line of spanking, and we have just as many wars and war protesters today as we did 40 years ago.
If you really think that crime rates are only dependent on spanking, your ignorance is truly frightful.

Quote:Your links further suggest to me that it's not a black and white subject, which is why I was attempting to engage forum members in the discussion in the first place. Perhaps spanking does cause aggression, but being a dick and posting half-assed links is not persuasive evidence.
I am not interested in doing your homework. You seem to have access to Internet, use it. A search for "spanking aggression studies" will turn up tons of links. Feel free to read them on your own time. Unless you'd rather be more comfortable believing no studies support the spanking-violence link.
Moreover, I find your attitude truly disturbing. Let's take other examples. Let's say a study comes out saying there's strong suspicion that toys made in China may have high contents of toxic materials (somethig similar has in fact happened). Most responsible parents wouldn't wait for "uncontrovertible proof" of the toxicity of the toys while their kids freely put them in their mouths. Most responsible parents would err on the side of caution and remove said toys from the reach of the kids until proof of their safety has been given. Or let's say that a report comes out of tomatoes that may be contaminated with E.Coli, we just don't know which batch. A responsible parent would probably not continue feeding his child raw tomatoes because it's just not a black and white issue and until the matter is settled you are going to continue do what you have always done. A responsible parent errs on the side of caution and waits for tomatoes to be declared safe before feeding them again to his child. I could go on and on with examples of how parents always seem to err on the side of caution, except... you got it... with spanking. For some reason, some parents just don't want to give it up no matter how many studies show it may have adverse effects. Which makes me suspicious that the real reason they spank their kids is not the good of the kids after all.
Now I know these parents are the same that say "Oh I was spanked as a kid, I turned up ok, didn't I"? While the question of whether they actually did turn up ok is open to interpretation, the argument is silly. My parents grew up in rural areas, and every morning they went to the chicken coop, took an egg, made a hole in it, and drunk it raw. They grew up ok. But then as I was growing up, they became educated on the danger of salmonella and E.Coli in raw eggs. Do all raw eggs make you sick? Obviously not, after all, they never got sic. But my parents prefered to be safe and not feed me raw eggs. Because again, a parent truly interested in the good of the child errs on the side of caution.

Quote:There's something terribly wrong with your thinking process. Everything in this world is not correctly seen through a dichotomic lens. There are things that humans should discuss amongst themselves, and no progress will ever be made if one side is more concerned with "winning" and image, rather than debate and resolution.

It is horribly disheartening to see somebody think that someone like me, who's very concerned for the welfare of the weakest among us has a "terribly wrong thinking process" and that my passion for the safety and well being of those who can't defend themselves is offensive to you. This is what society has now come to? You sound like the gun nuts: you can pry my gun from my cold, dead fingers! Except that in this case, it's the spanking.

English is not my first language. If you think I am being mean, ask me. It could be just a wording problem.
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09-07-2011, 10:01 PM
RE: Spanking kids
(09-07-2011 01:10 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  I wanna join in the adult spanking topic!!!!

Safeword? Gotta have a safeword. Wink

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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10-07-2011, 06:36 AM
RE: Spanking kids
(09-07-2011 08:50 PM)sy2502 Wrote:  
(09-07-2011 06:55 AM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  I try not to but into people's dialogue like this, but spanking is something that I never put much thought into, and BC did make some thought-provoking points. I really like to see this issue explored fully and right. That being said, sy2502, you are being somewhat hostile and rude. I really wouldn't blame BC for wanting to back out at this point, which would be a shame. So maybe you could tone down the insults a bit?

Can you point out which of my posts were insults?

I'm not going to get too involved in this, but if you want some specific examples.
post 70 Wrote:I see, so you have so badly run out of arguments that now you answer to how I write instead of to what I write!
I always find it pompous and presumption to say the opponents motivation like that, especially when it does nothing. You could have said "That doesn't address the point", or something to that effect.

Post 70 Wrote:LOL do you have kids? Have you ever actually seen kids play?
The tone there was demeaning of the opponents position.

Post 70 Wrote:At this point, I doubt even YOU know what you think.
Post 58 Wrote:LOL, IN NEED of slapping? Please!!! Can you even hear yourself?
Again, demeaning.

Post 58 Wrote:Oh wait, I thought it was YOUR argument that all young people who weren't spanked are pussies. Are you already backtracking on that? I am glad!
There is a point in there that you made, but you could have worded in a less inflammatory way.

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10-07-2011, 07:54 AM
RE: Spanking kids
(09-07-2011 08:50 PM)sy2502 Wrote:  If you really think that crime rates are only dependent on spanking, your ignorance is truly frightful.

That's not what he said. That's not even close to what he said. It's not even a reasonable interpretation of what he said.

I'm all for a good internet pissing match, especially when I'm not in the middle of it, but, seriously, can we stick to things that are actually posted.

Ok, sorry to interrupt. Carry on.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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10-07-2011, 09:59 AM
 
RE: Spanking kids
This is me not even remotely caring enough to read back 8 pages, k? K.

But yea, I think spanking your children is good, to an extent. The problem is the slippery slope. Spanking, or hitting your child is only ok in small doses and delivered when needed. Unfortunately, most parents don't do it like that.

But i think spanking can be a really good teaching method if used correctly. My parents, for example. I hate my dad, but that's for other reasons. As a child, if i were to do something bad, i'd recieve some good old Brazilian punishment. And i sure as hell wouldn't do that again. I've grown to be a respectful heathen, and i can confidently say it was because of my parents. I've seen how my friends turned out, and i'm glad that i was hit was a child.

But of course, there's the problem that most people don't do it correctly and just hit excessively or when it's not needed.
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