Speaking in tongues: A confession
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03-08-2013, 11:02 AM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2013 11:07 AM by Starcrash.)
RE: Speaking in tongues: A confession
(02-08-2013 12:38 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I have never once spoken in tongues.

Now, while I do believe in it, I do think it's an extremely rare occurrence. And as you stated, nearly all of it is fake.

Genuine speaking in tongues isn't the gibberish or the babble that you hear from the likes of Benny Hinn & Co. Like TwoCult said, it is an actual speaking of another known language without knowing that language.

It ought not to be "an extremely rare occurrence", because the apostle Paul gave directions to churches about how to handle those who speak in tongues during church service, as well as described it as a "gift of the spirit" given to new believers, which one would assume is as common as any of the other gifts.

Beyond that, I can point out why it's obvious that it doesn't exist -- the lack of translation on the internet. Among the "gifts of the spirit" is the ability to translate tongues, and not one of the people who allegedly possesses this gift has attempted to demonstrate this ability. It wouldn't be hard -- in a controlled setting, you give several "tongues interpreters" the same recorded lines spoken in tongues and ask them to translate seperately. It doesn't matter what they come up with, as long as they relate something statistically similar. But if that was possible, you'd think that someone would have already included a resource for those who don't speak in the "tongues of angels", a dictionary similar to the French-English dictionaries that lists all of the words and their translations. And I'm guessing that, if you did listen to someone's "translation", it wouldn't relate any new information because of the high degree of risk in trying to add something non-contradictory to the existing scripture. It would be, as it is with modern con men who speak to the dead, positive words that are generic and valueless, and quite probably lifted straight from the bible.

Finally, let's assume that the apostle Paul was speaking out of his ass when he said it needed translation... let's assume it is only like the case in Acts where the apostles all spoke real languages that were unknown to them. Is there any evidence that this has happened? If it did allegedly happen, how could we prove that the speakers didn't know the language? And if we can't prove it, then why the hell do you believe it?

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03-08-2013, 11:47 AM
RE: Speaking in tongues: A confession
(03-08-2013 11:02 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(02-08-2013 12:38 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I have never once spoken in tongues.

Now, while I do believe in it, I do think it's an extremely rare occurrence. And as you stated, nearly all of it is fake.

Genuine speaking in tongues isn't the gibberish or the babble that you hear from the likes of Benny Hinn & Co. Like TwoCult said, it is an actual speaking of another known language without knowing that language.

It ought not to be "an extremely rare occurrence", because the apostle Paul gave directions to churches about how to handle those who speak in tongues during church service, as well as described it as a "gift of the spirit" given to new believers, which one would assume is as common as any of the other gifts.

Beyond that, I can point out why it's obvious that it doesn't exist -- the lack of translation on the internet. Among the "gifts of the spirit" is the ability to translate tongues, and not one of the people who allegedly possesses this gift has attempted to demonstrate this ability. It wouldn't be hard -- in a controlled setting, you give several "tongues interpreters" the same recorded lines spoken in tongues and ask them to translate seperately. It doesn't matter what they come up with, as long as they relate something statistically similar. But if that was possible, you'd think that someone would have already included a resource for those who don't speak in the "tongues of angels", a dictionary similar to the French-English dictionaries that lists all of the words and their translations. And I'm guessing that, if you did listen to someone's "translation", it wouldn't relate any new information because of the high degree of risk in trying to add something non-contradictory to the existing scripture. It would be, as it is with modern con men who speak to the dead, positive words that are generic and valueless, and quite probably lifted straight from the bible.

Finally, let's assume that the apostle Paul was speaking out of his ass when he said it needed translation... let's assume it is only like the case in Acts where the apostles all spoke real languages that were unknown to them. Is there any evidence that this has happened? If it did allegedly happen, how could we prove that the speakers didn't know the language? And if we can't prove it, then why the hell do you believe it?

If any of you have read Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman he writes that the text referring to speaking in tongues and handling snakes was added much later by a scribe so it isn't in the earliest copies of Mark. This means that a lot of people have been speaking in tongues for centuries for no good reason.

But look on the bright side, it's good for burning up some calories and loosing some weight. (maybe)

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04-08-2013, 12:49 AM
RE: Speaking in tongues: A confession
(03-08-2013 11:47 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  If any of you have read Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman he writes that the text referring to speaking in tongues and handling snakes was added much later by a scribe so it isn't in the earliest copies of Mark. This means that a lot of people have been speaking in tongues for centuries for no good reason.

But look on the bright side, it's good for burning up some calories and loosing some weight. (maybe)

I have read Misquoting Jesus, as well as extensive criticisms of Ehrman's books by Richard Carrier. As much as I love Ehrman's books and lectures, he uses several "dubious" methods of historical criticism because he needs the existence of a historical Jesus in order for his theory of Jesus the Apocalyptic Prophet to work. He allows the gospels to be evidence for his case if they are "evidence against interest", for example, but all this requires is for him to make assumptions about why this would be against the church's interest (it typically isn't), or the gospels can be evidence if they contain "independently verified" information, which is impossible to know since one cannot know whether the author of John heard stories from the other gospels in a form of Chinese Whispers (passed along orally).

While it may be true that the parts of scripture about speaking in tongues was added later, I'm not taking Ehrman's word for it.

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04-08-2013, 01:12 AM
RE: Speaking in tongues: A confession




Tongues-speaker making a testable claim, complete with translator. Big Grin

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04-08-2013, 06:30 AM
RE: Speaking in tongues: A confession
Back in the hippie days a group of us took LSD and just sat around talking.

We started making fun of language and sounds and ended up "speaking in tongues", i.e. making nonsensical sounds. Playing with intonation and gesturing, we were able to speak complete gibberish yet communicate perfectly well.

It ended up being a game, and it was really quite interesting. The heightened perception caused by the LSD likely played a role, but it pointed out how much of language was tone and body language.

I actually ended taking away an advantage - I can listen to foreign language speakers and gain a rudimentary understanding of what's going on just by relaxing and listening to tone and watching the body. I may add that I am linguistically talented to start with.

I think the practice may have it's roots in some similar experience a group of people may have had generations ago.

Communicating with gibberish IS possible - the scope of communications is limited though. But speaking in tongues isn't actually consciously taking advantage of this. It is just - gibberish.

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04-08-2013, 07:03 AM
RE: Speaking in tongues: A confession
(02-08-2013 12:38 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Genuine speaking in tongues isn't the gibberish or the babble that you hear from the likes of Benny Hinn & Co. Like TwoCult said, it is an actual speaking of another known language without knowing that language.

I hope you don't mean it can actually exist.

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04-08-2013, 09:29 AM
RE: Speaking in tongues: A confession
(02-08-2013 08:21 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Was raised Catholic and so speaking in tongues and faith healing was wacky, crazy, baptist shit that you saw on TV while flipping channels, and not to be taken seriously...Catholicism is way more reverent, droll, cold, boring, droning...It's all reverb, stained glass and vaulted ceilings chock full of sit, stand, sit, stand, kneel, stand, kneel.

Ya but those wonderful Catholics gave us exorcism, their own brand of batshit. That and the zombie stuff. Big Grin


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04-08-2013, 11:33 AM
RE: Speaking in tongues: A confession
(04-08-2013 09:29 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(02-08-2013 08:21 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Was raised Catholic and so speaking in tongues and faith healing was wacky, crazy, baptist shit that you saw on TV while flipping channels, and not to be taken seriously...Catholicism is way more reverent, droll, cold, boring, droning...It's all reverb, stained glass and vaulted ceilings chock full of sit, stand, sit, stand, kneel, stand, kneel.

Ya but those wonderful Catholics gave us exorcism, their own brand of batshit. That and the zombie stuff. Big Grin

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...Oh yeah they are still plenty bat shit, just saying that it's all hidden behind a veil of gold platting, 40 foot ceilings and profound boredom.

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04-08-2013, 03:57 PM
RE: Speaking in tongues: A confession
Interesting. Many years ago I had a conversation with a man who was raised Pentecostal but converted to Judaism. At the time I was a non-religious but not definitively an atheist.

I asked him what it was like to speak in tongues. He said it was like being hypnotized and he didn't remember.

So I suppose there are some who are not faking it.

Nonsense is nonsense, but the history of nonsense is a very important science.
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04-08-2013, 04:07 PM
RE: Speaking in tongues: A confession
(04-08-2013 03:57 PM)Abdul Alhazred Wrote:  Interesting. Many years ago I had a conversation with a man who was raised Pentecostal but converted to Judaism. At the time I was a non-religious but not definitively an atheist.

I asked him what it was like to speak in tongues. He said it was like being hypnotized and he didn't remember.

So I suppose there are some who are not faking it.

Not consciously faking it.

Let's see the evidence that anyone is speaking an actual language. Drinking Beverage

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