Speaking on behalf - appropriate, correct?
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18-12-2012, 06:09 PM
RE: Speaking on behalf - appropriate, correct?
(18-12-2012 05:59 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(18-12-2012 05:53 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  I didn't begin to have doubts until I was around 40.
I sometimes forget that a lot of you guys are old as shit. Drinking Beverage

Ouch (waves my cane for those damn kids to get off my grass)
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18-12-2012, 06:32 PM
RE: Speaking on behalf - appropriate, correct?
(18-12-2012 04:50 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  1) No True Scotsman (you can't answer for a Christian because you never really were a Christian because you're an atheist now).

This poses some validity because you now disassociate yourself from that group and no longer think like that group. It was your line of thinking that ultimately led you away from Christianity, which means that you never truly believed in the most absolute sense. Somewhere, there was some doubt. This doubt ultimately led to your atheism whether it was reached through rationale, logic, or simply reading the Bible.

Christianity requires an "engulfing, unshakable" faith... and anyone who does not have that will move away from it. Hence, No True Scotsman. You never were because you never had that type of faith.

You know that "no true Scotsman" is a logical fallacy, right? And you're committing it by labeling "true Christians" as those with "engulfing, unshakable faith". You called the fallacy by its name, implying that you're fully aware that it exists and what it is, and then you immediately made that fallacy. It's so ironic I think my head is going to explode.

There are other reasons that a person can change their mind from certainty in one direction to certainty in another. A new introduction of data is one such reason, as well as a new view of data already known. The latter is what caused my mind to change about Christianity. I had all of the data available, but my bias caused me to slant it and ignore things that didn't fit the narrative in my head. I changed my stance when I became more open-minded to the possibility that I had evaluated that data wrong.

To assume that "true" Christians can't ever change their minds and convert to atheism is a fundamentalist belief that I would have never previously attributed to you.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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18-12-2012, 08:20 PM
RE: Speaking on behalf - appropriate, correct?
(18-12-2012 05:59 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(18-12-2012 05:53 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  I didn't begin to have doubts until I was around 40.
I sometimes forget that a lot of you guys are old as shit. Drinking Beverage
I probably have underwear older than you. Blink

"All that is necessary for the triumph of Calvinism is that good Atheists do nothing." ~Eric Oh My
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18-12-2012, 09:52 PM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2012 09:57 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: Speaking on behalf - appropriate, correct?
Also regarding the OP's point 1: It lacks any predictive capacity. In other words, it suggests that (identifying) Christians can't speak to what Christians think, because there's no way of knowing if they'll be deconverting in 5 years. Questioning the validity of the speaker's knowledge is quite valid, but there comes a point where you make it so that no one can speak to anything.
(18-12-2012 06:06 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(18-12-2012 05:59 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I sometimes forget that a lot of you guys are old as shit. Drinking Beverage
Not to hijack KC's nice thread, but - old as shit? You'd think that shit is among the things that never get a chance to get old. All it takes is one flush, after all.
It's not only bears that shit in the woods. (Though an old professor of mine had a bear version on his mantle.) In other news, SCIENCE IS AWESOME!

Warning Labels: Long-winded. Twisted sense of humor (including puns, literalisms, absurdisms, all complicated by sarcasm and deadpan delivery). Contrarian. Do not combine with high quantities of sugar, acid (corrosive or hallucinogenic), or people who take themselves too seriously.
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18-12-2012, 10:09 PM
RE: Speaking on behalf - appropriate, correct?
(18-12-2012 09:52 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Also regarding the OP's point 1: It lacks any predictive capacity. In other words, it suggests that (identifying) Christians can't speak to what Christians think, because there's no way of knowing if they'll be deconverting in 5 years. Questioning the validity of the speaker's knowledge is quite valid, but there comes a point where you make it so that no one can speak to anything.

Great point. I hope that someday KingsChosen does become an atheist so he'll gain the ability to empathize with Erxomai, myself, and others who have gone down the same path. I guess a person just can't understand how a real-life believing Christian can stop believing until that person has done it himself. It could possibly happen, and until KC knows for certain that it won't, his points are questionable (by his own standard).

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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18-12-2012, 10:23 PM
RE: Speaking on behalf - appropriate, correct?
(18-12-2012 04:50 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  This poses some validity because you now disassociate yourself from that group and no longer think like that group. It was your line of thinking that ultimately led you away from Christianity, which means that you never truly believed in the most absolute sense.

Do you believe in true, unshakable faith? If I could show you unmistakable proof, proof that left you with absolutely no doubt, that god doesn't exist, would you still continue to believe? I obviously can't do that for either side of the argument, but I think your statement that true Christians have absolute faith is false. They simply have faith that can withstand the counter-arguments. There either is, or is not, a deity or multiple deities, and there is perfect proof for that truth (we humans will never have it). Faith is a meaningless "virtue" when you know that absolute proof exists.

In my opinion Smile

(18-12-2012 04:50 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I can't speak as an atheist because I was never an atheist because if I was, I would still be one - No True Scotsman.

You were born an atheist. You were taught your religion just as you were taught your native language, and what you were taught was determined by your environment. I think there is no such thing as a True Scotsman. You're born an empty container, and people start filling you up at a very young age. Hopefully, as you get older, you fill it yourself.

On a tangent, that makes me think of this:
What if hell is where the person you are when you die has to meet the person you could have become?

...it would rather be a man... [who] plunges into scientific questions with which he has no real acquaintance, only to obscure them with aimless rhetoric, and distract the attention of his hearers from the real point at issue by eloquent digressions and skilled appeals to religious prejudice.
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18-12-2012, 11:18 PM
RE: Speaking on behalf - appropriate, correct?
KC you said you were an atheist type before then had Damascus Road and now you're a theist. So you know directly that No True Scotsman is a fallacy. Can I say to you 'all your experiences as an atheist not withstanding, you never really were an atheist, therefore for you to say anything about how an atheist thinks is not valid' ?
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18-12-2012, 11:32 PM
RE: Speaking on behalf - appropriate, correct?
Id say that the only difference between us is the ones we give ourselves and to others (christian, atheist, muslim, hindu....any label)


We project our inner world onto the outer world, I think most of the time in discussion/arguement the only person we are trying to convince is ourselfs foremost.

You're never going to say the things you want to say.
The things you want to change will usually stay that way
The promises you break outweigh the ones you keep.
Paint upon the wall for the hundredth time.

Jesus Jones
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18-12-2012, 11:44 PM
RE: Speaking on behalf - appropriate, correct?
Furthermore, an outsider can still say something about a group. When I was in school there was a certain teacher I didn't like. I happened to criticise her within the hearing of another teacher and got given a bollocking because 'I wasn't a teacher and had no idea of the difficulties'. I thought about it afterwards and you know, *I had the right to criticise*. *I* was the poor sod who had to sit in her lessons. Sure I wasn't a teacher, but I was on the receiving end.

Equally again, even if I was never a Christian (not true unfortunately), I still have the right to chirp, or to say 'that doesn't even make sense according to your own book' - if the requirement of being a true Christian is that you *have* to have bought it hook line and sinker, then no skeptic can ever become a Christian, because *any* checking against logic or fact is *questioning* which means you haven't bought it. I expect a written deconversion letter momentarily Smartass
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19-12-2012, 12:46 AM
RE: Speaking on behalf - appropriate, correct?
"(you can't answer for a Christian because you never really were a Christian because you're an atheist now)."

So people who change thier sex can't say what it was like to have had their penis/vagina before they had the operation?

Fuck, if frogs and butterflies could speak...

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