Spin-off of Why I believe
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12-04-2017, 12:03 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
If someone considers an anecdote about prayer working to be evidence, would they consider an anecdote about it not working to be counter evidence?

The idea of prayer is messed up in so many ways. It's kind of like God has nodded off and you nudge him.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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12-04-2017, 12:04 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
smarm·y
ˈ/smärmē/
adjective informal
ingratiating and wheedling in a way that is perceived as insincere or excessive.
"a smarmy, unctuous reply"
synonyms: unctuous, ingratiating, slick, oily, greasy, obsequious, sycophantic, fawning

(11-04-2017 05:27 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  I can't say as I don't own one. I do know there are some that are Christian only. I can only say don't judge me by what some other Christians do just as you would not want t be judged by what some other atheists do. I also know this is not my forum either the mods are free to ban me at any time for cause and I'm ok with that and agree with that.

I would like to say this guys I do thank you for allowing me to join, it has and is being an eyeopening experience. My association with atheists has been petty much neal for various reasons but really I acknowledge there are some just good folks here who simply believe different that I. I also will say they are some that well are less accepting Smile but I realize I don't know their history with theists and their feelings may well be justified.

Again all I ask is to judge me on my own merits I will continue to strive to be respectful even when we may passionately disagree. Again thank you for my apparent slow response time I am so far behind and really want to spend sometime with to wife

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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12-04-2017, 12:38 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(11-04-2017 10:32 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  As to prayers and healing. Yes I believe in praying to God for healing. Now do I have any proof or any way to prove definitively that prayer heals people? No, none, zip, nada! Fair enough? So do I still pray for those who are sick? Absolutely! Now am I being an irrational gullible nitwit etc for believing in praying for the sick with no "provable" evidence that prayer has any effect for the sick?
Yeah, you are Smile No more so than anyone else. Look, atheists aren't infallible logic machines either. Apart from the God issue we have plenty of other stuff in our lives that isn't rationally based. Political opinions, opinions about X random issue etc. BUT you've just said "I believe with zero evidence that prayer works for healing". How about praying to Santa? There's an equal amount of evidence that *that* works for healing too, but it sounds daft doesn't it?

People are perfectly capable of being idiots in one area of their lives while being total geniuses elsewhere. My best friend from when I was young is a hectic engineer, but just like you, he prays to God when shit goes badly for him. Y'all ever come across Ambrose Bierce? "Pray, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy."

Quote:Before everyone jumps on the bandwagon I have something to ask of you. I simply ask, no I beg please each and everyone here do this one thing. Call or go to your doctor or any doctor your child's pediatrician, regular md, specialist just good random selection and ask these three questions:

Do you believe in praying for your patients?

Do you pray with families if asked to?

Do you have any evidence prayer helps?
Replace prayer with "Homeopathy" and you'll also get plenty of positive answers. Not because homeopathy is any use, but because the placebo effect is real. Besides which, since when do opinion polls constitute evidence? Doctors are trained in medicine, their beliefs are irrelevant provided they can accurately diagnose and treat illness.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-04-2017, 02:51 AM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2017 02:55 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
People go to beliefs and anecdotes when there isn't any actual scientific evidence.

Do you really think that if prayer actually did anything someone wouldn't have put together a competent study by now?

If it falls to pieces under scrutiny, that just shows that all those beliefs are misguided. Everyone is vulnerable to confirmation bias.

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12-04-2017, 02:59 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
Hey God...

You know your plan? Your perfect, flawless, wise, forward-thinking, expertly crafted plan?

It sucks balls. Change it. Right now. I know better than you.

Or...

Are people just saying, "God, I hope your plan involves what I want it to involve". In which case, it's just the same as someone saying, "I hope you get better".

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12-04-2017, 03:02 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(12-04-2017 02:51 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  People go to beliefs and anecdotes when there isn't any actual scientific evidence.

Do you really think that if prayer actually did anything someone wouldn't have put together a competent study by now?

If it falls to pieces under scrutiny, that just shows that all those beliefs are misguided. Everyone is vulnerable to confirmation bias.

> Actually, studies have been done. Prayer has been shown to be ineffective in bringing about changes in reality:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prayer
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12-04-2017, 03:13 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(12-04-2017 12:03 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  If someone considers an anecdote about prayer working to be evidence, would they consider an anecdote about it not working to be counter evidence?

The idea of prayer is messed up in so many ways. It's kind of like God has nodded off and you nudge him.
(12-04-2017 03:02 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  > Actually, studies have been done. Prayer has been shown to be ineffective in bringing about changes in reality:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prayer


I do some brain hacking with binaural beats from time to time. Auditory hallucinations are fun. I wouldn't be surprised if all the praying and chanting and flailing about doesn't consistently induce specific brain waves they find pleasurable. Seems like you'd have a lot more control of the frequency and resultant brain waves by just electronically manipulating sine waves instead of going through all that rigamarole though. What the fuck is the frequency, Kenneth?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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12-04-2017, 03:30 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(12-04-2017 03:02 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 02:51 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  People go to beliefs and anecdotes when there isn't any actual scientific evidence.

Do you really think that if prayer actually did anything someone wouldn't have put together a competent study by now?

If it falls to pieces under scrutiny, that just shows that all those beliefs are misguided. Everyone is vulnerable to confirmation bias.

> Actually, studies have been done. Prayer has been shown to be ineffective in bringing about changes in reality:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prayer

Quote:Every time a pope falls ill and ends up on his deathbed, we may assume that a sizable fraction of the one billion Catholics in the world all pray for his recovery. Despite this enormous effort of prayer, 100% of popes eventually die.
Laugh out load

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-04-2017, 03:31 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(12-04-2017 03:13 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I do some brain hacking with binaural beats from time to time.
Do you think it works? I've tried it (earth frequency I think it was called) in an attempt to relieve my anxiety but I'm unsure of its effects.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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12-04-2017, 03:41 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(12-04-2017 03:02 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 02:51 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  People go to beliefs and anecdotes when there isn't any actual scientific evidence.

Do you really think that if prayer actually did anything someone wouldn't have put together a competent study by now?

If it falls to pieces under scrutiny, that just shows that all those beliefs are misguided. Everyone is vulnerable to confirmation bias.

> Actually, studies have been done. Prayer has been shown to be ineffective in bringing about changes in reality:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prayer

Sure, yeah Smile

I meant if it worked, someone would have demonstrated it by now. Studying and showing the truth should be easy. As you say, studies show the opposite. I'm amazed that doesn't bother people. I guess they're so used to doublethink. They sure as hell wouldn't reject the study if it showed prayer worked!

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