Spin-off of Why I believe
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
12-04-2017, 06:21 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(12-04-2017 05:10 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  really it's like an echo chamber in here of double standard demands an ad hominem.

Can you show examples of any of these? You frequently squeal about double standards and ad hominem, but ya know, just disagreeing with you or calling you an idiot is not actually a fallacy.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like morondog's post
12-04-2017, 06:32 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(11-04-2017 08:08 PM)Vera Wrote:  Oh god, Calvinism! The vilest and most repugnant of them all...

... as I might've had occasion to rant about once... or several times, before. Blush

Even forgetting the mind-numbing idiocy of believing that both you AND your freaking spouse and spawn just happen to have been elected, the sheer magnitude of its arrogance, of believing that YOUR precious self is just so important that YOU are going to be saved, above everyone else, no freaking matter what! Censored
(28-10-2013 02:54 PM)Vera Wrote:  And every time I hear Calvinism, I think William Cowper...

The scariest thing is, there was a (bleak) point in my life, when I knew exactly how he felt... The most wonderful thing however, is that I didn't fight it as vehemently as he did (not much of a fighter, me... not when it comes to lost causes at least) and in time managed to shake the whole insane thing off. Still shudder occasionally when I remember that mindset.

"His whole life was a long sadness...Despair grew upon him...and he came to the settled opinion that he was a doomed, damned man, one who had committed an irreparable sin, and for whom there was no redemption forevermore...The last five years of his life were passed in perpetual gloom. During these five years he is said never to have smiled."

However, he had some great poems. And of course, there's this:

"Knowledge is proud that he has learned so much;
Wisdom is humble that he knows no more."

Such a pity he had to suffer so much for the same reason countless have. And continue to. Religion. Sad

(10-09-2016 08:15 AM)Vera Wrote:  Sorry if already posted.

[Image: 14224682_1132650136781441_1123090084033407521_n.jpg]

[Image: calvinism.gif]

[Image: she-loves-me-she-loves-me-not.jpg]


Though this last one should probably be a tulip Drinking Beverage You know, the good ol' Canons of Dirt, I’m sorry, Dork. (The total depravity is the bit I heart the most)

[Image: TULIP-570x238.png]

(02-03-2017 06:29 AM)Vera Wrote:  And (with all due respect to Kingschosen, whom I genuinely like), the most abhorrent and vile, and mind-numbingly arrogant of them all is Calvinism. At least other denominations claim that you just need to be a good person to go to Heaven, etc. But to believe that pretty much everyone else is going to suffer for eternity (or not be resurrected, am fuzzy on the details) but YOUR precious self was chosen for eternal salvation? And not just you, mind you, but by some magical coincidence, your spouse and children as well? And to be okay with it and willing to worship such a random, inexplicable monster? How does the mind even handle such a degree of arrogance and cognitive dissonance?

It's things like these which make me sad I have but one rep point to give. And agreed; with all due respect to KC (and one of my best friends as well offline), I find Calvinism to be utterly horrifying in that God has to be some sort of sadist in it, to design things only to destine them for eternal torment, a sort of Cosmic Santa, except the Naughty and Nice Lists are predetermined before birth, and the Naughty List brings eternal hellfire and damnation rather than coal.

(11-04-2017 08:17 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(11-04-2017 07:55 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  ...point taken good sir, point taken. Tongue And sorry, hope I didn't come off defensive or anything there by pointing him out; it's quite funny really. He calls so many Catholics out on not following Church teaching, and then they usually whine something like, "you have no morals and can't judge me!" Laugh out load

No, no point, just trying to be funny. Big Grin

I'm glad you mentioned all that because it is good to know. When all you see are the extremists then it gets harder to remember the more reasonable folks.

Oh okay, thanks! Smile

(11-04-2017 09:15 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(11-04-2017 08:42 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  I don't submit this as proof of any claim,

Then don't submit it.

This is not a place for you to preach, witness or otherwise spread the "good news".

(11-04-2017 08:42 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  it is however testimonials in book form by a medical doctor. Sorry for the delay in responding: http://drelaine.com/do-you-believe-in-mi...octors-do/

An MD who specializes in "holistic therapy" and "super healing". Yeah, that sounds legit.

Let's look:

Quote:A nine-year-old boy who was decapitated in a horrific car accident but survived without neurological damage.

Really? Decapitated? Head severed?

I call bullshit.

Hoping it's the spinal decapitation one he won't answer you about, but had to quote this to share an anecdote (much like ATT keeps doing). I once spoke with a summer camp director who told me the folks in charge of the camp had a policy that no camper die there. "Even if they're decapitated, we are to assume they have the breath of life in them and wait for the EMTs to take the head and rest of the body to the hospital to declare them dead." Pretty sure the EMTs would go "Yeah, that's a dead kid" as soon as they saw a decapitated child. Guy was far too cavalier about the whole concept too.

Need to think of a witty signature.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Shai Hulud's post
12-04-2017, 06:39 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(12-04-2017 06:32 AM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  It's things like these which make me sad I have but one rep point to give.


But you're saving it for the *right* one, no? Tongue

Sorry, I really can't help myself. It's (mostly) my books, I promise Blush

Quote:And agreed; with all due respect to KC (and one of my best friends as well offline), I find Calvinism to be utterly horrifying in that God has to be some sort of sadist in it, to design things only to destine them for eternal torment, a sort of Cosmic Santa, except the Naughty and Nice Lists are predetermined before birth, and the Naughty List brings eternal hellfire and damnation rather than coal.

And, the most revolting thing is (since god is fiction, anyway Tongue ) its adherents are apparently totally okay with it, staggering cruelty and all No

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Vera's post
12-04-2017, 06:53 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(12-04-2017 06:39 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 06:32 AM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  It's things like these which make me sad I have but one rep point to give.


But you're saving it for the *right* one, no? Tongue

Sorry, I really can't help myself. It's (mostly) my books, I promise Blush

Quote:And agreed; with all due respect to KC (and one of my best friends as well offline), I find Calvinism to be utterly horrifying in that God has to be some sort of sadist in it, to design things only to destine them for eternal torment, a sort of Cosmic Santa, except the Naughty and Nice Lists are predetermined before birth, and the Naughty List brings eternal hellfire and damnation rather than coal.

And, the most revolting thing is (since god is fiction, anyway Tongue ) its adherents are apparently totally okay with it, staggering cruelty and all No

And that's the moment I realized I've never repped you and apologize! Fixed that now. Also the joke made me laugh there...though it does make me wonder what exactly you're translating that you blame them. Consider

(We'll agree to disagree on that one. Tongue But fair enough and to be expected on an atheist board.) Agreed other than the part I disagreed with. It boggles the mind. Give me the theologians who hope that God is merciful and kind and over His erm...super smiting phase.

(And on that note...time to go act as a less than Cosmic Judge, but still potentially harm people through my actions. Headed to a meeting where we're hashing out scholarship criteria for low income students, because our grant money can't help everyone who applies for this high school/university dual enrollment program for low-income kids.)

Need to think of a witty signature.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Shai Hulud's post
12-04-2017, 08:13 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(11-04-2017 07:36 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(11-04-2017 06:48 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  I agree that Muslim suicide bombers are acting on faith in Allah and the teachings of Islam. I would say neither faith is wrong but is simply an indication of their adherence of a belief they hold to be true.

And you do not see the problem?

Quote:“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
― Voltaire


(11-04-2017 06:48 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Perhaps it would be better to ask why is the object of one person's faith right and the ofject of another person's wrong? I would then say neither is wrong to them.

Then you can justify every religious based atrocity, from the Crusades to Jim Jones to Andrea Yates.

And I am obligated to point out that the believers themselves make the other believers wrong.

(11-04-2017 06:48 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  They are simply exercising their held belief in Islam and its teachings just as an atheist is exercising a belief that deities do not exist and having a disregard to any religious teachings and Christians are exercising their belief in Christianity.

No, atheism is not another religion or belief system.

Atheism is a response to one question: Do you believe in god?

There is no belief system. There is no atheist theology or dogma or catechism. There are no atheist scriptures or doctrines or gospels.

(11-04-2017 06:48 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Each of the three beliefs believe they are right and in a relative world each can be seen as to be right in their own eyes. There in lies the problem with relative truth as opposed to absolute truth.

You have no right to claim absolute truth when you present no evidence to support your claim. You dare to say religion has the absolute truth?

Which religion?
Why is islam false and christianity true?
Why not buddhism?
Why not Greek mythology?

(11-04-2017 06:48 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  So as not to dodge the question of why is one is right and one wrong I would simply ask, Is it right to kill someone simply for what they believe. Curious as to how you might answer the right/wrong question?

No, you are dodging the question. I asked why one religion was right and all others wrong. Your question is an ethical-moral question.

Is it right to kill someone for what they believe?
It all depends on what they believe, doesn't it?

Is it acceptable to kill an infant if god tells you to?

Perhaps you should reread my statement "an atheist is exercising a belief that deities do not exist and having a disregard to any religious teachings". There is no claim here that atheism is a religion but rather in fact dismisses all religious because their is no deities and dismisses any and all religious teachings. By thinking through what I stated how do conclude I presented atheism as a religion?

Read again on the subject of truth. I presented that three opposing worldviews each believe they are right in their "own" eyes and in reality this three worldviews do claim that each is right in their own eyes. This is only possible if one accepted that truth is relative. Logically if one applies the law of non contradiction two or more opposing views cannot both be true at the same time so all three could be false but only one can be true "absolutely". Reread my statement and you will see that I did not claim that one of the three was absolutely true. I did point out the difference between the relative true claim being contradictory as opposed to absolute true where only one of the three could be absolutely true. Again I never stated that above that I believe one of the three "is" absolutely true.

The point here being made is this; if I believe that Christianity is absolutely true and you believe atheism is absolutely true then we can both be wrong but only one of us can be right. Can either side provide definitive proof that God does or does not exist. No. So again both can be wrong and only one right yet there is no definitive proof. Thing is if one is true one should choose wisely. This is the dilemma that brought in play Pascal's wager

Is it ever right to kill someone because of what they believe?
If one follows the premise "It all depends on what they believe" to it final conclusion then you open the door to justifiable genocide depending on who gets to do the deciding.

Is it right to kill a baby because if god tells you to? I may not answer this to your satisfaction but I won't dodge it either. The Bible presents many difficult things for us as humans to understand and justify in our minds. Also it is natural to filter these things through view we hold to be true. If our view is that God is holy good and just and all knowing then is it possible for me to say it's right or wrong. Is God a murderer for killing the Egyptian babies? Have you ever considered that from the position of the Israelites? Do you consider slavery wrong? Do you consider evil torturous slavery even more wrong? Suppose your were that Israelite father slave and Pharoah killed "your" son because he feared your growing numbers. Was that ever right. Is God then a murderer because He killed the Egyptian babies to free you from further slavery and evil? Was the United States murderers for killing the Japanese babies with those two bombs? If one fairly studies the Bible in context one will find that God's judgement is always based on evil?

Are you going to dodge this question; Is it right to kill a baby in the womb just because one wants to?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-04-2017, 08:18 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(12-04-2017 04:58 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 03:02 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  > Actually, studies have been done. Prayer has been shown to be ineffective in bringing about changes in reality:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prayer

Facepalm Ah respectfully perhaps this should be run by Aliza (#96), I can't believe she hasn't already jumped all over this one. Or is this another example of double standards ?
What? The Wiki link? That's different. Go to the bottom of the article and check out the sources. If that Wiki is citing Dr. Elaine, then that's a problem. If it's citing medical or science journals or studies conducted by universities, then it's fine.

And Chas has proven more than capable of citing from academic sources. He's trustworthy in this regard. Learn from him
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Aliza's post
12-04-2017, 08:25 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Is it right to kill a baby because if god tells you to? I may not answer this to your satisfaction but I won't dodge it either. The Bible presents many difficult things for us as humans to understand and justify in our minds. Also it is natural to filter these things through view we hold to be true. If our view is that God is holy good and just and all knowing then is it possible for me to say it's right or wrong. Is God a murderer for killing the Egyptian babies? Have you ever considered that from the position of the Israelites? Do you consider slavery wrong? Do you consider evil torturous slavery even more wrong? Suppose your were that Israelite father slave and Pharoah killed "your" son because he feared your growing numbers. Was that ever right. Is God then a murderer because He killed the Egyptian babies to free you from further slavery and evil? Was the United States murderers for killing the Japanese babies with those two bombs? If one fairly studies the Bible in context one will find that God's judgement is always based on evil?
Laughat So you're asserting that God is right to kill Egyptian babies because Egyptians were nasty to Israelites? I assume then that Donald Trump's plan to kill terrorist's families fills you with delight too?

Quote:Are you going to dodge this question; Is it right to kill a baby in the womb just because one wants to?
Nice use of emotive language there Mr Not-Double-Standard. Firstly, it's only the *mother* who has the choice in any country where abortion is legal. Not just anyone, as you seem to be trying to suggest here.

Secondly, what do you class as a baby? Is it the moment a sperm fuses with an egg? Is it the moment it looks human? Would you really cry about one cell if it died? Are you aware that embryos are spontaneously aborted routinely? Several birth abnormalities result in spontaneous abortions. What do you know of the birth process? Or are you just another religious fundamentalist mouthing off?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 9 users Like morondog's post
12-04-2017, 08:27 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
Get 'im, dog. Big Grin

See? It's shit like that that makes people not like you. Dodgy

[Image: ZF1ZJ4M.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-04-2017, 08:30 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(12-04-2017 08:27 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Get 'im, dog. Big Grin

See? It's shit like that that makes people not like you. Dodgy

I'd be worried if the eejits of the world did start liking me Dodgy

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-04-2017, 08:51 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(12-04-2017 06:53 AM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  though it does make me wonder what exactly you're translating that you blame them. Consider

Trust me, you don't wanna know. Suffice it to say that they often involve duelling banjos tongues (and other bodily protuberances) and are enough to make one reevaluate one's position on life, the universe and god. Hm, come to think of it, maybe you *should* get to read a bit more about/from them. We want you one our side Tongue

On the other hand, I still need a protector for when the theocracy comes, so...

Quote: Give me the theologians who hope that God is merciful and kind and over His erm...super smiting phase.

Which we only have today because society has evolved to a slightly more civilised, less barbaric phase, dragging religion (often kicking and screaming) with it Yes

Quote:(And on that note...time to go act as a less than Cosmic Judge, but still potentially harm people through my actions. Headed to a meeting where we're hashing out scholarship criteria for low income students, because our grant money can't help everyone who applies for this high school/university dual enrollment program for low-income kids.)

Education should be available to everyone who has the mental - not financial - capacity for it Confused

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Vera's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: