Spin-off of Why I believe
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12-04-2017, 09:00 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Perhaps you should reread my statement "an atheist is exercising a belief that deities do not exist ...
You still seem confused about what atheism actually is: It not a belief, but a lack of belief. Atheists dont make claims about god(s) but reject claims about god(s).
You have heared this analogy maybe often, but atheism is as much a belief as not-stamp-collecting is a hobby.

(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Can either side provide definitive proof that God does or does not exist. No. So again both can be wrong and only one right yet there is no definitive proof.
Consequently you are confused as well about the need of an atheist to provide proof for his position. Since atheism is not making any positive claims, it is not required to provide proof.
If someone claims that pink unicorns exist, and if you are sceptical of their existence (= rejecting the proposition and sticking with the default position), then you would certainly be surprised if i would ask you for evidence for pink unicorns not existing. Would you?

(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Thing is if one is true one should choose wisely. This is the dilemma that brought in play Pascal's wager
Pascals wager is less of a dilemma and mostly a very unconvincing argument for pretending to believe (i am saying "pretending", because an omniscient god would know if you are "honest" or just trying to place a safe bet.
Addendum: If i was a god, i would throw those into hellfire first who "believe" because of Pascals Wager, because i would think they are trying to insult my [godly] intellect)


(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Is it right to kill a baby because if god tells you to? I may not answer this to your satisfaction but I won't dodge it either. The Bible presents many difficult things for us as humans to understand and justify in our minds. Also it is natural to filter these things through view we hold to be true. If our view is that God is holy good and just and all knowing then is it possible for me to say it's right or wrong. Is God a murderer for killing the Egyptian babies? Have you ever considered that from the position of the Israelites? Do you consider slavery wrong? Do you consider evil torturous slavery even more wrong? Suppose your were that Israelite father slave and Pharoah killed "your" son because he feared your growing numbers. Was that ever right. Is God then a murderer because He killed the Egyptian babies to free you from further slavery and evil? Was the United States murderers for killing the Japanese babies with those two bombs? If one fairly studies the Bible in context one will find that God's judgement is always based on evil?
Are you going to dodge this question; Is it right to kill a baby in the womb just because one wants to?

I am going to be very clear now, just to avoid any miscommunication:
First you claim to not dodge the question about morality, and then you continue to ask eight questions yourself? Really? Answering one question with eight (8!) questions in return is not considered dodging in your playbook?. Nevertheless i will answer some of oyur questions (unlike you did).
I consider slavery wrong. Do you? Does the bible?
Suppose i am an Israelite father slave....how is that relevant to your god allegedly killing egyptian babies? Are you trying to suggest that there is a context under which killing (babies) is morally correct...or less evil? Are you trying to marginalize what your god did?

Is god a murderer because he killed (egyptian) babies? Do you really need me to tell you the answer? How about you answer your own question? Was god a murderer for doing so?

Are you holding your god to the same moral standard as the united.fucking.states.of.murica? Dont you have a higher standard than that for your god?
How is the USA nuking japanese babies relevant for the morality of your god? Are you going down the "tu quoque" road? Are you trying to marginalize again what your god did, by his own accout (if we consider the bible being gods word)? I pretty much think so. Otherwise you wouldnt have put forward not one but two examples by which you wanted to justify your gods killing of egyptian babies.

What have those egyptian babies done to justify your god, or for the sake of the argument anybody else in the universe, killing them being morally acceptable?
If your god tells you that killing egyptian babies is "ok", by what standard do you judge that claim?

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12-04-2017, 09:13 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
OMG....people still use Pascal's Wager?
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12-04-2017, 09:14 AM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2017 09:18 AM by Shai Hulud.)
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(12-04-2017 08:25 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Is it right to kill a baby because if god tells you to? I may not answer this to your satisfaction but I won't dodge it either. The Bible presents many difficult things for us as humans to understand and justify in our minds. Also it is natural to filter these things through view we hold to be true. If our view is that God is holy good and just and all knowing then is it possible for me to say it's right or wrong. Is God a murderer for killing the Egyptian babies? Have you ever considered that from the position of the Israelites? Do you consider slavery wrong? Do you consider evil torturous slavery even more wrong? Suppose your were that Israelite father slave and Pharoah killed "your" son because he feared your growing numbers. Was that ever right. Is God then a murderer because He killed the Egyptian babies to free you from further slavery and evil? Was the United States murderers for killing the Japanese babies with those two bombs? If one fairly studies the Bible in context one will find that God's judgement is always based on evil?

Laughat So you're asserting that God is right to kill Egyptian babies because Egyptians were nasty to Israelites? I assume then that Donald Trump's plan to kill terrorist's families fills you with delight too?
Quote:Are you going to dodge this question; Is it right to kill a baby in the womb just because one wants to?
Quote:Nice use of emotive language there Mr Not-Double-Standard. Firstly, it's only the *mother* who has the choice in any country where abortion is legal. Not just anyone, as you seem to be trying to suggest here.

Secondly, what do you class as a baby? Is it the moment a sperm fuses with an egg? Is it the moment it looks human? Would you really cry about one cell if it died? Are you aware that embryos are spontaneously aborted routinely? Several birth abnormalities result in spontaneous abortions. What do you know of the birth process? Or are you just another religious fundamentalist mouthing off?

And this is why I sometimes hesitate to call myself "pro-life" as the position usually seems to be one of control over women and their bodies, rather than truly being pro-life. An example being our politicians here in the U.S. lately; the only abortion clinic in the entire state of Missouri is in St. Louis, because of laws enacted to restrict abortion. It forces those who are poor and outside of the city to either have an illegal abortion or to bear the pregnancy to term, thus often increasing the poverty that child will be raised in. Simultaneously, those same politicians will work damn hard to cut off any sort of health care and educational aid to that child, because "poor people need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps" or some such thing. Oh and the death penalty is the best thing ever to those same folks. Often it's more a "pro-birth" than "pro-life" perspective.


(12-04-2017 08:51 AM)Vera Wrote:  Trust me, you don't wanna know. Suffice it to say that they often involve duelling banjos tongues (and other bodily protuberances) and are enough to make one reevaluate one's position on life, the universe and god. Hm, come to think of it, maybe you *should* get to read a bit more about/from them. We want you one our side Tongue

I read the infamous My Little Pony fanfiction "Cupcakes" involving torture porn and cannibalism and sewing cloaks of pony flesh, so...yeah...that was on a dare, I should say.

(12-04-2017 08:51 AM)Vera Wrote:  On the other hand, I still need a protector for when the theocracy comes, so...
Europe? Doesn't seem theocratic (mostly) any time soon. Less so than many countries in the Americas possibly.


(12-04-2017 08:51 AM)Vera Wrote:  Which we only have today because society has evolved to a slightly more civilised, less barbaric phase, dragging religion (often kicking and screaming) with it Yes
Fair enough. Most Christians would be put to death, if sent back in time to the Middle Ages, as heretics and blasphemers. Myself included. Not just referring to the Catholics either, heh, a lot of those Reformation guys would burn the non-denoms or Evangelicals on a pyre or something too, at least in my opinion.



(12-04-2017 08:51 AM)Vera Wrote:  Education should be available to everyone who has the mental - not financial - capacity for it Confused

Agreed. Sad Sadly the U.S. basically runs even state level institutions as businesses. (in some states even moreso. A common tactic by Republicans is to keep cutting funding from the state to public universities, forcing the universities to raise tuition, then decrying the evil universities for charging students more. Then continue to supply just enough budget that the universities are technically taxpayer funded...like in Pennsylvania, I believe about 15% or so of their funding comes from the state for public universities, the rest being made up in tuition and fees, whereas 25 years ago it was 80%+.) We didn't really settle our debate at the meeting, we're going into version 5 of the rubric. We also received some negative news that one of our cooperating school districts decided to back out on one of the financial points, doubling the amount their students will pay out of pocket.

As for ATT; dude. I respect what you're trying to do. But your examples are often lacking. Also there seem to be some false equivalencies going on in your arguments. For instance, I can't compare the moralities of God killing Egyptian kids to that of the U.S. dropping atomic bombs on Japan (or the often ignored firebombing campaigns that produced even more casualties over their longer time period). Or if one takes Genesis literally, killing everyone in the world except a handful of people, who then somehow repopulate the Earth in record time, and avoid a genetic bottleneck that would doom humanity to extinction.

Edits 2-6, 7?: Shai really screwed up quote tags around Morondog's stuff. And then it spread to around Vera's.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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12-04-2017, 09:17 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Perhaps you should reread my statement "an atheist is exercising a belief that deities do not exist and having a disregard to any religious teachings". There is no claim here that atheism is a religion but rather in fact dismisses all religious because their is no deities and dismisses any and all religious teachings. By thinking through what I stated how do conclude I presented atheism as a religion?

When you present atheism in a group with two religions, and claim atheism is a belief system, then it is fair to conclude that you are presenting atheism as a religion.

Not only is atheism NOT a religion, it is not even a belief system.

(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Read again on the subject of truth. I presented that three opposing worldviews each believe they are right in their "own" eyes and in reality this three worldviews do claim that each is right in their own eyes.

Individual atheists make varying claims, with the only commonality being a lack of belief in god. Some atheists will claim that they are sure there is no god, others state uncertainty.

However both islam and christianity claim both certainty and exclusivity as doctrinal facts. Both claim they are 100% right and all others wrong. Both claim that they and only they have the ONE TRUE GOD.

Since there is no "atheism" you would have to ask individual atheists what they believe.

(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Reread my statement and you will see that I did not claim that one of the three was absolutely true.

Both islam and christianity claim absolute truth. It does not matter what you state. Both religions have been committing atrocities for millennia with that justification.

(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  The point here being made is this; if I believe that Christianity is absolutely true and you believe atheism is absolutely true then we can both be wrong but only one of us can be right. Can either side provide definitive proof that God does or does not exist. No. So again both can be wrong and only one right yet there is no definitive proof.

The default position is non-belief. If you are making a claim that Christianity is true then you must support that claim.

(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Thing is if one is true one should choose wisely. This is the dilemma that brought in play Pascal's wager

Pascal's wager is one of the most pathetic apologetics ever conceived. Is your god that stupid that he would fall for it? A non-believer says, "well, I don't really believe, but just in case..." And your god accepts this???


(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Is it ever right to kill someone because of what they believe?
If one follows the premise "It all depends on what they believe" to it final conclusion then you open the door to justifiable genocide depending on who gets to do the deciding.

I would guess that all groups that have committed genocide were convinced that they were doing the right thing.

Personally, I don't think genocide is justified. Ever. But there are individuals with some pretty fucked up beliefs. If those individuals are going to act on those beliefs then killing them could be justified. Welcome to the real world. There is no magic book or imaginary friend to point out the correct decision.

Could killing a group of terrorists for their beliefs (and impending actions) lead to genocide? I doubt it.

(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Is it right to kill a baby because if god tells you to? I may not answer this to your satisfaction but I won't dodge it either.

And you just lied. You did not answer my question. It's a simple yes or not question. You dodged and wiggled. Maybe your new username should be Jello.

(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  The Bible presents many difficult things for us as humans to understand and justify in our minds. Also it is natural to filter these things through view we hold to be true.

It's only difficult if you assume that god is all good and the fables are true. If you read it as the pseudo-history of primitive desert tribes, it all makes sense. People make shit up, embellish stories and do some really nasty things. It only gets confusing when you throw god in.

(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  If our view is that God is holy good and just and all knowing then is it possible for me to say it's right or wrong.

If you can't judge right or wrong then how can you say god is good?
That's YOUR double standard.

(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Is God a murderer for killing the Egyptian babies?

Yep.

How about the Flood? How many babies? Pregnant women? (That'd be abortion, wouldn't it?)
What about the animals? What did they do?

What about Job? His family was murdered with god's permission, just to test him.
That's fucked up.

(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Have you ever considered that from the position of the Israelites?

Yes.

(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Do you consider slavery wrong? Do you consider evil torturous slavery even more wrong?

Yes, slavery is wrong.

Unfortunately for you, the bible gives the rules for slavery. Biblical slavery was used to justify the enslavement of African-americans.

Shall I quote the bible verses?

And don't give me that "indentured servitude" bullshit. That only applied to other Jews. Non-Jews were fair game for slavery.

So if I can tell you that slavery is wrong, then why can't god figure that out?

(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Suppose your were that Israelite father slave and Pharoah killed "your" son because he feared your growing numbers. Was that ever right.

If it was wrong for Pharaoh to kill babies, then why is it okay for god?
Double-motherfuckin'-standard.

(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Is God then a murderer because He killed the Egyptian babies to free you from further slavery and evil?

According to the story, Pharaoh was GOING TO LET THEM GO UNTIL GOD HARDENED HIS HEART.

So god WANTED to kill Egyptian babies.

Pharaoh said, "Okay, get out" and god said "No way dude, I'm gonna kill me some babies!"

Truly a god of mercy and love.

And what kind of angel needs a visible sign (blood, of course, more death) to tell who to kill? Seriously?

(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Was the United States murderers for killing the Japanese babies with those two bombs?

I don't know if that counts as murder, but I personally think the bombs should not have been dropped.

(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  If one fairly studies the Bible in context one will find that God's judgement is always based on evil?

Yep. Sounds like it.

(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Are you going to dodge this question; Is it right to kill a baby in the womb just because one wants to?

Lots of abortion in the bible:
SAB: Abortion

Quote:What the Bible says about Abortion:

Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life. Exodus 21:22-23

The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old. Leviticus 27:6

Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons. Numbers 3:15-16

God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.
Numbers 31:15-17
Hosea 9:14
Hosea 9:16
Hosea 13:16

God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents. 2 Samuel 12:14

God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives. Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28

God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women. Genesis 38:24

Yes. I support some types of abortion, insofar as I believe it is the woman's individual right to choose what to do with her body.

Men do not, under any circumstances, have the right to tell a woman whether or not she can terminate a pregnancy.

Since most religions that forbid abortion also forbid all forms of contraception, I think that the religious have little ground to stand on.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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12-04-2017, 09:20 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(11-04-2017 10:32 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  As to prayers and healing. Yes I believe in praying to God for healing. Now do I have any proof or any way to prove definitively that prayer heals people? No, none, zip, nada! Fair enough? So do I still pray for those who are sick? Absolutely! Now am I being an irrational gullible nitwit etc for believing in praying for the sick with no "provable" evidence that prayer has any effect for the sick?

Pretty much.

Take out prayer and put in any other activity and tell me it doesn't sound ridiculous to you. Instead of praying for the sick, you go watch a movie. Or drink beer. Or eat pizza.

"My aunt is sick so I went and ate a large pizza for her to get better". Yet you have just as much evidence of you eating that pizza helping your sick aunt as you praying for her does.
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12-04-2017, 09:45 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(12-04-2017 08:13 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(11-04-2017 07:36 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  And you do not see the problem?




Then you can justify every religious based atrocity, from the Crusades to Jim Jones to Andrea Yates.

And I am obligated to point out that the believers themselves make the other believers wrong.


No, atheism is not another religion or belief system.

Atheism is a response to one question: Do you believe in god?

There is no belief system. There is no atheist theology or dogma or catechism. There are no atheist scriptures or doctrines or gospels.


You have no right to claim absolute truth when you present no evidence to support your claim. You dare to say religion has the absolute truth?

Which religion?
Why is islam false and christianity true?
Why not buddhism?
Why not Greek mythology?


No, you are dodging the question. I asked why one religion was right and all others wrong. Your question is an ethical-moral question.

Is it right to kill someone for what they believe?
It all depends on what they believe, doesn't it?

Is it acceptable to kill an infant if god tells you to?

Perhaps you should reread my statement "an atheist is exercising a belief that deities do not exist and having a disregard to any religious teachings". There is no claim here that atheism is a religion but rather in fact dismisses all religious because their is no deities and dismisses any and all religious teachings. By thinking through what I stated how do conclude I presented atheism as a religion?

Read again on the subject of truth. I presented that three opposing worldviews each believe they are right in their "own" eyes and in reality this three worldviews do claim that each is right in their own eyes. This is only possible if one accepted that truth is relative. Logically if one applies the law of non contradiction two or more opposing views cannot both be true at the same time so all three could be false but only one can be true "absolutely". Reread my statement and you will see that I did not claim that one of the three was absolutely true. I did point out the difference between the relative true claim being contradictory as opposed to absolute true where only one of the three could be absolutely true. Again I never stated that above that I believe one of the three "is" absolutely true.

The point here being made is this; if I believe that Christianity is absolutely true and you believe atheism is absolutely true then we can both be wrong but only one of us can be right. Can either side provide definitive proof that God does or does not exist. No. So again both can be wrong and only one right yet there is no definitive proof. Thing is if one is true one should choose wisely. This is the dilemma that brought in play Pascal's wager

Is it ever right to kill someone because of what they believe?
If one follows the premise "It all depends on what they believe" to it final conclusion then you open the door to justifiable genocide depending on who gets to do the deciding.

Is it right to kill a baby because if god tells you to? I may not answer this to your satisfaction but I won't dodge it either. The Bible presents many difficult things for us as humans to understand and justify in our minds. Also it is natural to filter these things through view we hold to be true. If our view is that God is holy good and just and all knowing then is it possible for me to say it's right or wrong. Is God a murderer for killing the Egyptian babies? Have you ever considered that from the position of the Israelites? Do you consider slavery wrong? Do you consider evil torturous slavery even more wrong? Suppose your were that Israelite father slave and Pharoah killed "your" son because he feared your growing numbers. Was that ever right. Is God then a murderer because He killed the Egyptian babies to free you from further slavery and evil? Was the United States murderers for killing the Japanese babies with those two bombs? If one fairly studies the Bible in context one will find that God's judgement is always based on evil?

Are you going to dodge this question; Is it right to kill a baby in the womb just because one wants to?


Is abortion your escape strategy? Floundering in supporting claims that religious belief has some positive effect in the world are you now retreating to what you take to be higher moral ground? Good luck.

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Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

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12-04-2017, 09:52 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
Me reading this thread:

[Image: costanza-popcorn.gif]


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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12-04-2017, 10:00 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
Moms is here. Time to behave. Angel

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12-04-2017, 10:36 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(12-04-2017 09:14 AM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  I read the infamous My Little Pony fanfiction "Cupcakes" involving torture porn and cannibalism and sewing cloaks of pony flesh, so...yeah...that was on a dare, I should say.

Now *I* vehemently do not wanna know Gasp Am in no state to handle this, not now (especially), not ever!

Quote:Europe? Doesn't seem theocratic (mostly) any time soon. Less so than many countries in the Americas possibly.

Yabut we all know how much you guys like bringing "freedom and democracy" and all that enlightenend stuff to the rest of the world Dodgy



Quote:Agreed. Sad Sadly the U.S. basically runs even state level institutions as businesses. (in some states even moreso. A common tactic by Republicans is to keep cutting funding from the state to public universities, forcing the universities to raise tuition, then decrying the evil universities for charging students more. Then continue to supply just enough budget that the universities are technically taxpayer funded...like in Pennsylvania, I believe about 15% or so of their funding comes from the state for public universities, the rest being made up in tuition and fees, whereas 25 years ago it was 80%+.) We didn't really settle our debate at the meeting, we're going into version 5 of the rubric. We also received some negative news that one of our cooperating school districts decided to back out on one of the financial points, doubling the amount their students will pay out of pocket.

And not just the States, either. But it does seem to be worst over there.

Quote:As for ATT; dude. I respect what you're trying to do.

Which would be? Consider

As for abortion, what really incenses me, is religious people's arrogance in thinking they have the right to impose *their* morality (or what passes for it, no offence) on others. During that infamous conversation with a bunch of very rich and rather homophobic Brazilian guys, I was told by one of them (was told the same by another, much much younger - religious - girl, as well), that he does not approve of abortion. Then don't have one Dodgy (he also doesn't approve of euthanasia and wouldn't even put his dog out of its misery, 'cause skydaddy might have another plan or something. He also thought euthanasia was the state killing people willy-nilly. What a willy, in-freaking-deed) And *we* are the ones oppressing *them* and denying *them* rights Dodgy

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12-04-2017, 11:04 AM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2017 05:10 PM by adey67.)
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
The religious are not interested in human rights the rights of the unborn or any other rights other than the right of their particular beliefs to supercede those of all others.

Edit: I should say some of the religious not all, my bad
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