Spin-off of Why I believe
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13-04-2017, 12:23 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
Can God create a rock that is so heavy, He cannot lift it?

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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13-04-2017, 12:40 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(13-04-2017 12:23 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  Can God create a rock that is so heavy, He cannot lift it?

I suppose an imaginary character can have whatever properties those who imagine it want it to have.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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13-04-2017, 12:42 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(13-04-2017 09:51 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  It's rather like that fundamentalist, believing the world is 6000 years old and proclaims loudly, "if evolution were true and we came from monkeys why are there still monkeys?"
Darnit Moms, stop spying on my classes! You can't just quote my students here. Tongue (No, in all seriousness, I've heard that one in my Theory class when we get to bio stuff, which is all rooted in the writings of various evolutionary biologists as much as it is our own social science folks, if not moreso.)

Need to think of a witty signature.
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13-04-2017, 12:52 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(13-04-2017 12:03 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 11:36 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Thought you were going to change your username, the name Yogi is far better Imo.

I agree but lacking the detains required I do ask momsurrondedbyboys to change my user name to Yogi_Bear or some similar variation, if already used, and I give my thanks in advance

Is that the name you chose? I thought I read that you were taking suggestions. I think it's a cute name, but just make sure you're happy with it. It is, afterall, your username.
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13-04-2017, 01:47 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(13-04-2017 11:55 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  As a youngster my dad was fond of saying "son, the lord gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason, you need to be listening twice as much as talking", that said and yielding to your wise counsel and that of Aliza, The Organic Chemist, morondog, adey67 and others I concede a few days breather, by following the advice given, is well heeded. My dad always said I sure was hard headed sometimes. Yes With that I wish everyone a wonderful weekend and perhaps in a few days a wiser and humbler ATT would again be welcomed to, as Aliza admonished, discuss religion and beliefs with the goal to understand and inform when requested. Respectfully, ATT

Don't go gettin' too bloody reasonable now, you'll make me feel bad for insulting you Dodgy

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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13-04-2017, 02:45 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(13-04-2017 11:56 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(10-04-2017 07:48 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  This thread is started per the request of SeaJay and others and as yet there were several posts presented there which time did not allow a response, please copy and paste any post from there that anyone would wish to continue. I will respond to those as time permits. I acknowledge the suggestions posted toward the end of the original post and thank everyone for their patience with the newbie

PS: Paleophyte,, chocolate is always a favorite in its many forms but when it comes to milkshakes a butterscotch malt tops the list, briefs here over boxers and 39 light years from here makes my head hurt to comprehend such a distance. Our universe is grand indeed isn't it


Since you are taking over for SeaJay and his original thread was about why he believes, I'd like to pose a question to you about what you believe.

How can we reliably distinguish between what you believe about what you call a god, and something that is merely imaginary? When you or another theist tell me about your god that you believe in, I know for certain that I must use my imagination in order to consider it. As far as I can tell, gods are indistinguishable from the imaginary. Something which is indistinguishable from something that is imaginary is imaginary.

First I would like to clarify I wouldn't want this spin-off thread to be seem in any way as taking over or away from SeaJay's thread. It was started at SeaJay's request due to his origin thread morphing into to separate and different ideas about what belief is being presented, I acknowledge my part of the blame for drifting off his OP. Hindsight of a different thread title would have helped. SeaJay's OP, correct me if I mis-speak SeaJay,
was the implication that a large part of his belief was based on fear, and specifically the fear of hell as presented in the Bible was real.

This spin off was more on the positive belief of God and prayer. Again hindsight is 20/20 Sad.

I believe it is quite easy to make a distinction between what I believe about the creator God and something that is merely imaginary. First what would make "something" merely imaginary. I say that if something is always presented and aways accepted by a majority of the people and the majority of the time is a good indication it is merely imaginary. Also if it presents itself as merely imaginary it would be accepted and viewed as merely imaginary. A few examples I would present as meeting what I would think qualifies for an accepted view of what would be merely imaginary would include: the tooth fairy, fairytales, the Easter bunny, Flying Spaghetti Monster ( by self definition) , pink unicorns etc. it can reliably stated then that theses are merely imaginary by the majority of people.

Then what would serve reliably that there is a distinction between the God I believe as not just merely imaginary compaired to those above. The God I believe on is not taught and accepted by the majority of the people the majority of the time as being merely imaginary. The God I believe in does not define Himself as merely imaginary. I acknowledge that there are those who do teach and accept the God I believe as merely imaginary.

There are what I consider to be examples that the God I believe in is distinguished as much more than merely imaginary.

Examples that the God I believe in is not viewed as merely imaginary is:
God is taught that His Son Jesus came to earth. Is this just merely imaginary? The fact that the Georgia calendar marks that date and has been used and acknowledged that point in time with the designation BC and A. D. For hundreds of years to denofe that birth is more than merely imaginary

The founding fathers declared "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." To declare our unalienable rights are endowed on us by a Creator is definitely not viewing the God I believe in as merely imaginary.

Our National Motto "In God We Trust" , a law of the land since 1956 and first appearing on coins in 1864 is anything but merely imaginary

Princeton’s crest still says “Dei sub numine viget,” which is Latin for “Under God she flourishes.” Merely imaginary?

If one simply looks there is a multitude of evidence that the God I believe in is reliably distinguished differently than those above as merely imaginary when compared to fairy tales etc.

A final note, no I'm not saying any of this implies nor is offered, nor claims as proof of God. But is being presented as evidence that there is a multitude of evidence that there is a real distinction between the God I believe in and the other things noted above as merely imaginary.

Also note I acknowledge that for those who believe there is no god as definited as the one I believe in or lack a belief in or any god or gods I realize the above is meaningless other that the distinction noted.
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13-04-2017, 02:50 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
Christians think their beliefs are facts to be accepted by everyone else. I find that the Christians who visit this site are often surprised to learn that the very fundamental building blocks that make up their realities are not shared by others.

I remember once discussing religion with a Christian (not on this forum), but I recall the palpable shock and disbelief in her voice when she realized that I not only reject her beliefs, but that I don’t even accept that the Jesus described in her bible was even a real person. She had never heard anything so ludicrous in her life! She was told Jesus was a historical figure as a child, she learned about Jesus as a historical figure in public school, and she had never been given reason to doubt what she was told. But when I pressed her to provide evidence independent of the bible to show that Jesus was a real person, the material she presented was very weak and had questionable dates and some of it was regarded as forgeries by academia.

When you post on TTA, don’t make statements like, “Jesus existed, that’s a fact.” Instead, try something more like, “I believe Jesus existed because the evidence that I’ve seen seems to point to that conclusion.” Then list your reasons. People will poke holes through your beliefs, but you didn’t join an atheist site to talk to like-minded people. You came to discuss touchy subjects with people who you know will disagree. You may well find that much of what you assume is true may not be accepted as fact by others, and that the independent evidence doesn't support your viewpoint.

Don’t make appeals to emotion. Those of us who do not accept Christianity are not making an emotional decision. We’ve evaluated the information and we’ve drawn a different conclusion. Pleading with us will not cause the data to change. Scaring us with stories of hell and bogey men will not change the data.

Keep these things in mind and you should be able to have productive conversations. Smile
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13-04-2017, 03:13 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(13-04-2017 12:52 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 12:03 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  I agree but lacking the detains required I do ask momsurrondedbyboys to change my user name to Yogi_Bear or some similar variation, if already used, and I give my thanks in advance

Is that the name you chose? I thought I read that you were taking suggestions. I think it's a cute name, but just make sure you're happy with it. It is, afterall, your username.

Yes it would be my first choice, it's the name of our one year old Miniature Schnauzer. I did make adey67 the offer to choose a new user name to replace ATT. (While holding my breath:shySmile He graciously declined and offered suggestions to consider in choosing a new name. (A testimony to the outstanding character of adey67)

The exchange can be followed starting in the expanded view of #53, post #64 and #66
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13-04-2017, 03:16 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(13-04-2017 02:45 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  A final note, no I'm not saying any of this implies nor is offered, nor claims as proof of God. But is being presented as evidence that there is a multitude of evidence that there is a real distinction between the God I believe in and the other things noted above as merely imaginary.

No, nothing you posted is evidence that the god is not imaginary. It may be evidence that people believe that the god actually exists but that is not at all the same thing. There are bigfoot and alien visitation museums that offer much better evidence for their claims and still fall short. The number of children who leave out milk and cookies for Santa and honestly believe that he exists are not evidence that there is a Santa Claus. The Roman calendar was fixed to the founding of the city but that doesn't mean that Romulus and Remus were raised by wolves.

Nobody here (that I know of anyway) denies that people believe that the god exists but evidence for that was not requested. What was asked is how you can distinguish between something that is real and something that is imaginary. Saying that a lot of people believe it is an "argument from popularity" and is a logical fallacy. It has zero weight.

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13-04-2017, 03:16 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(13-04-2017 02:45 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 11:56 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Since you are taking over for SeaJay and his original thread was about why he believes, I'd like to pose a question to you about what you believe.

How can we reliably distinguish between what you believe about what you call a god, and something that is merely imaginary? When you or another theist tell me about your god that you believe in, I know for certain that I must use my imagination in order to consider it. As far as I can tell, gods are indistinguishable from the imaginary. Something which is indistinguishable from something that is imaginary is imaginary.

First I would like to clarify I wouldn't want this spin-off thread to be seem in any way as taking over or away from SeaJay's thread. It was started at SeaJay's request due to his origin thread morphing into to separate and different ideas about what belief is being presented, I acknowledge my part of the blame for drifting off his OP. Hindsight of a different thread title would have helped. SeaJay's OP, correct me if I mis-speak SeaJay,
was the implication that a large part of his belief was based on fear, and specifically the fear of hell as presented in the Bible was real.

This spin off was more on the positive belief of God and prayer. Again hindsight is 20/20 Sad.

I believe it is quite easy to make a distinction between what I believe about the creator God and something that is merely imaginary. First what would make "something" merely imaginary. I say that if something is always presented and aways accepted by a majority of the people and the majority of the time is a good indication it is merely imaginary. Also if it presents itself as merely imaginary it would be accepted and viewed as merely imaginary. A few examples I would present as meeting what I would think qualifies for an accepted view of what would be merely imaginary would include: the tooth fairy, fairytales, the Easter bunny, Flying Spaghetti Monster ( by self definition) , pink unicorns etc. it can reliably stated then that theses are merely imaginary by the majority of people.

Then what would serve reliably that there is a distinction between the God I believe as not just merely imaginary compaired to those above. The God I believe on is not taught and accepted by the majority of the people the majority of the time as being merely imaginary. The God I believe in does not define Himself as merely imaginary. I acknowledge that there are those who do teach and accept the God I believe as merely imaginary.

There are what I consider to be examples that the God I believe in is distinguished as much more than merely imaginary.

Examples that the God I believe in is not viewed as merely imaginary is:
God is taught that His Son Jesus came to earth. Is this just merely imaginary? The fact that the Georgia calendar marks that date and has been used and acknowledged that point in time with the designation BC and A. D. For hundreds of years to denofe that birth is more than merely imaginary

The founding fathers declared "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." To declare our unalienable rights are endowed on us by a Creator is definitely not viewing the God I believe in as merely imaginary.

Our National Motto "In God We Trust" , a law of the land since 1956 and first appearing on coins in 1864 is anything but merely imaginary

Princeton’s crest still says “Dei sub numine viget,” which is Latin for “Under God she flourishes.” Merely imaginary?

If one simply looks there is a multitude of evidence that the God I believe in is reliably distinguished differently than those above as merely imaginary when compared to fairy tales etc.

A final note, no I'm not saying any of this implies nor is offered, nor claims as proof of God. But is being presented as evidence that there is a multitude of evidence that there is a real distinction between the God I believe in and the other things noted above as merely imaginary.

Also note I acknowledge that for those who believe there is no god as definited as the one I believe in or lack a belief in or any god or gods I realize the above is meaningless other that the distinction noted.

HuhHuhHuh What??

Okay, I don't find what you said intellectually offensive or dishonest. I just don't understand a word of it. Are you presenting evidence as to why I should believe that your god is distinguishable from my G-d? Please clarify for the peanut gallery.
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