Spin-off of Why I believe
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13-04-2017, 03:21 PM (This post was last modified: 13-04-2017 03:31 PM by Aliza.)
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(13-04-2017 03:13 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 12:52 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Is that the name you chose? I thought I read that you were taking suggestions. I think it's a cute name, but just make sure you're happy with it. It is, afterall, your username.

Yes it would be my first choice, it's the name of our one year old Miniature Schnauzer. I did make adey67 the offer to choose a new user name to replace ATT. (While holding my breath:shySmile He graciously declined and offered suggestions to consider in choosing a new name. (A testimony to the outstanding character of adey67)

The exchange can be followed starting in the expanded view of #53, post #64 and #66

I really like Yogi_Bear. It's cute and creative. PM momsurroundedbyboys and ask her if she'd be so kind as to change it for you.
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13-04-2017, 03:30 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(13-04-2017 11:55 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 09:51 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Once again, this is our playground. Yes, you'll be pushed to the back of line while waiting what you believe is patiently for the swings, but we see you fidgeting and tapping your foot that gives you away.

You can either go cry to the teacher about the unfair kids (much like you've been doing), or you can actually try, in a meaningful way, answering questions put to you.

Here's the problem that you and many other theist types have, the belief that we don't get religious types here all the freaking time. We do -- and many of us are quite exhausted from the same fucking arguments all the fucking time. But we have to keep knocking down those silly drab arguments until you and those like you, finally learn they are without meaning.

It's rather like that fundamentalist, believing the world is 6000 years old and proclaims loudly, "if evolution were true and we came from monkeys why are there still monkeys?"

That's the sort of thing that sounds like a funny little "gotcha" moment someone heard and repeated assuming it was true, until you actually think about it and realize how fucking wrong it is and how dumb it makes you look to actually suggest it.

As a youngster my dad was fond of saying "son, the lord gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason, you need to be listening twice as much as talking", that said and yielding to your wise counsel and that of Aliza, The Organic Chemist, morondog, adey67 and others I concede a few days breather, by following the advice given, is well heeded. My dad always said I sure was hard headed sometimes. Yes With that I wish everyone a wonderful weekend and perhaps in a few days a wiser and humbler ATT would again be welcomed to, as Aliza admonished, discuss religion and beliefs with the goal to understand and inform when requested. Respectfully, ATT

Have a great Easter mate, don't you quit though I expect to see you again after the holiday. Smile regards Adey
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13-04-2017, 03:51 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(13-04-2017 02:45 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  First I would like to clarify I wouldn't want this spin-off thread to be seem in any way as taking over or away from SeaJay's thread. It was started at SeaJay's request due to his origin thread morphing into to separate and different ideas about what belief is being presented, I acknowledge my part of the blame for drifting off his OP. Hindsight of a different thread title would have helped. SeaJay's OP, correct me if I mis-speak SeaJay,
was the implication that a large part of his belief was based on fear, and specifically the fear of hell as presented in the Bible was real.

This spin off was more on the positive belief of God and prayer. Again hindsight is 20/20 Sad.

I believe it is quite easy to make a distinction between what I believe about the creator God and something that is merely imaginary. First what would make "something" merely imaginary. I say that if something is always presented and aways accepted by a majority of the people and the majority of the time is a good indication it is merely imaginary. Also if it presents itself as merely imaginary it would be accepted and viewed as merely imaginary. A few examples I would present as meeting what I would think qualifies for an accepted view of what would be merely imaginary would include: the tooth fairy, fairytales, the Easter bunny, Flying Spaghetti Monster ( by self definition) , pink unicorns etc. it can reliably stated then that theses are merely imaginary by the majority of people.

Then what would serve reliably that there is a distinction between the God I believe as not just merely imaginary compaired to those above. The God I believe on is not taught and accepted by the majority of the people the majority of the time as being merely imaginary. The God I believe in does not define Himself as merely imaginary. I acknowledge that there are those who do teach and accept the God I believe as merely imaginary.

There are what I consider to be examples that the God I believe in is distinguished as much more than merely imaginary.

Examples that the God I believe in is not viewed as merely imaginary is:
God is taught that His Son Jesus came to earth. Is this just merely imaginary? The fact that the Georgia calendar marks that date and has been used and acknowledged that point in time with the designation BC and A. D. For hundreds of years to denofe that birth is more than merely imaginary

The founding fathers declared "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." To declare our unalienable rights are endowed on us by a Creator is definitely not viewing the God I believe in as merely imaginary.

Our National Motto "In God We Trust" , a law of the land since 1956 and first appearing on coins in 1864 is anything but merely imaginary

Princeton’s crest still says “Dei sub numine viget,” which is Latin for “Under God she flourishes.” Merely imaginary?

If one simply looks there is a multitude of evidence that the God I believe in is reliably distinguished differently than those above as merely imaginary when compared to fairy tales etc.

A final note, no I'm not saying any of this implies nor is offered, nor claims as proof of God. But is being presented as evidence that there is a multitude of evidence that there is a real distinction between the God I believe in and the other things noted above as merely imaginary.

Also note I acknowledge that for those who believe there is no god as definited as the one I believe in or lack a belief in or any god or gods I realize the above is meaningless other that the distinction noted.

unfogged already pointed out that Argumentum ad populum is not a very good argument.

One billion Hindus believe in Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer, another 1.6 billion Muslims believe in Allah and Muhammad, if we go with your premise you have to acknowledge that they too are not imaginary. Now you have at least 4 competing and mutually exclusive gods. Blink

If all you need is a lot of people believing in one thing to say it isn’t imaginary or wrong then the world at one time was indeed flat and for centuries the Sun did revolve around the Earth right? Do you see the problem with your argument now?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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13-04-2017, 03:56 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(13-04-2017 12:23 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  Can God create a rock that is so heavy, He cannot lift it?

This sentence is false.

#sigh
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13-04-2017, 04:00 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(13-04-2017 02:50 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Christians think their beliefs are facts to be accepted by everyone else. I find that the Christians who visit this site are often surprised to learn that the very fundamental building blocks that make up their realities are not shared by others.

I remember once discussing religion with a Christian (not on this forum), but I recall the palpable shock and disbelief in her voice when she realized that I not only reject her beliefs, but that I don’t even accept that the Jesus described in her bible was even a real person. She had never heard anything so ludicrous in her life! She was told Jesus was a historical figure as a child, she learned about Jesus as a historical figure in public school, and she had never been given reason to doubt what she was told. But when I pressed her to provide evidence independent of the bible to show that Jesus was a real person, the material she presented was very weak and had questionable dates and some of it was regarded as forgeries by academia.

When you post on TTA, don’t make statements like, “Jesus existed, that’s a fact.” Instead, try something more like, “I believe Jesus existed because the evidence that I’ve seen seems to point to that conclusion.” Then list your reasons. People will poke holes through your beliefs, but you didn’t join an atheist site to talk to like-minded people. You came to discuss touchy subjects with people who you know will disagree. You may well find that much of what you assume is true may not be accepted as fact by others, and that the independent evidence doesn't support your viewpoint.

Don’t make appeals to emotion. Those of us who do not accept Christianity are not making an emotional decision. We’ve evaluated the information and we’ve drawn a different conclusion. Pleading with us will not cause the data to change. Scaring us with stories of hell and bogey men will not change the data.

Keep these things in mind and you should be able to have productive conversations. Smile
Thanks Alize, I will
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13-04-2017, 04:15 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(13-04-2017 03:30 PM)adey67 Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 11:55 AM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  As a youngster my dad was fond of saying "son, the lord gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason, you need to be listening twice as much as talking", that said and yielding to your wise counsel and that of Aliza, The Organic Chemist, morondog, adey67 and others I concede a few days breather, by following the advice given, is well heeded. My dad always said I sure was hard headed sometimes. Yes With that I wish everyone a wonderful weekend and perhaps in a few days a wiser and humbler ATT would again be welcomed to, as Aliza admonished, discuss religion and beliefs with the goal to understand and inform when requested. Respectfully, ATT

Have a great Easter mate, don't you quit though I expect to see you again after the holiday. Smile regards Adey

Thanks again and in keeping with taking a breather for a few days consider this my last post for a few days. I'll check in now and then on the name change momsurrondedbyboys. Good weekend wishes for all.
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13-04-2017, 11:18 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
Even though million of people believe in the Christian God, they can't agree on even the most basic facts about it. So this is not good evidence that it's a single, real entity. It points to imaginary versions, or else a being that is fucking with you.

If a million people asked me a question, they all get the same answer.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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14-04-2017, 04:41 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(13-04-2017 11:18 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  If a million people asked me a question, they all get the same answer.

"Fuck off! What the fuck is wrong with you people?"

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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14-04-2017, 05:19 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(13-04-2017 02:45 PM)Yogi_Bear Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 11:56 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Since you are taking over for SeaJay and his original thread was about why he believes, I'd like to pose a question to you about what you believe.

How can we reliably distinguish between what you believe about what you call a god, and something that is merely imaginary? When you or another theist tell me about your god that you believe in, I know for certain that I must use my imagination in order to consider it. As far as I can tell, gods are indistinguishable from the imaginary. Something which is indistinguishable from something that is imaginary is imaginary.

First I would like to clarify I wouldn't want this spin-off thread to be seem in any way as taking over or away from SeaJay's thread. It was started at SeaJay's request due to his origin thread morphing into to separate and different ideas about what belief is being presented, I acknowledge my part of the blame for drifting off his OP. Hindsight of a different thread title would have helped. SeaJay's OP, correct me if I mis-speak SeaJay,
was the implication that a large part of his belief was based on fear, and specifically the fear of hell as presented in the Bible was real.

This spin off was more on the positive belief of God and prayer. Again hindsight is 20/20 Sad.

I believe it is quite easy to make a distinction between what I believe about the creator God and something that is merely imaginary. First what would make "something" merely imaginary. I say that if something is always presented and aways accepted by a majority of the people and the majority of the time is a good indication it is merely imaginary. Also if it presents itself as merely imaginary it would be accepted and viewed as merely imaginary. A few examples I would present as meeting what I would think qualifies for an accepted view of what would be merely imaginary would include: the tooth fairy, fairytales, the Easter bunny, Flying Spaghetti Monster ( by self definition) , pink unicorns etc. it can reliably stated then that theses are merely imaginary by the majority of people.

Then what would serve reliably that there is a distinction between the God I believe as not just merely imaginary compaired to those above. The God I believe on is not taught and accepted by the majority of the people the majority of the time as being merely imaginary. The God I believe in does not define Himself as merely imaginary. I acknowledge that there are those who do teach and accept the God I believe as merely imaginary.

There are what I consider to be examples that the God I believe in is distinguished as much more than merely imaginary.

Examples that the God I believe in is not viewed as merely imaginary is:
God is taught that His Son Jesus came to earth. Is this just merely imaginary? The fact that the Georgia calendar marks that date and has been used and acknowledged that point in time with the designation BC and A. D. For hundreds of years to denofe that birth is more than merely imaginary

The founding fathers declared "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." To declare our unalienable rights are endowed on us by a Creator is definitely not viewing the God I believe in as merely imaginary.

Our National Motto "In God We Trust" , a law of the land since 1956 and first appearing on coins in 1864 is anything but merely imaginary

Princeton’s crest still says “Dei sub numine viget,” which is Latin for “Under God she flourishes.” Merely imaginary?

If one simply looks there is a multitude of evidence that the God I believe in is reliably distinguished differently than those above as merely imaginary when compared to fairy tales etc.

A final note, no I'm not saying any of this implies nor is offered, nor claims as proof of God. But is being presented as evidence that there is a multitude of evidence that there is a real distinction between the God I believe in and the other things noted above as merely imaginary.

Also note I acknowledge that for those who believe there is no god as definited as the one I believe in or lack a belief in or any god or gods I realize the above is meaningless other that the distinction noted.

So- a lot of people think it's real, so it's distinct from other imaginary things? Facepalm




Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-04-2017, 10:24 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(14-04-2017 05:19 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 02:45 PM)Yogi_Bear Wrote:  First I would like to clarify I wouldn't want this spin-off thread to be seem in any way as taking over or away from SeaJay's thread. It was started at SeaJay's request due to his origin thread morphing into to separate and different ideas about what belief is being presented, I acknowledge my part of the blame for drifting off his OP. Hindsight of a different thread title would have helped. SeaJay's OP, correct me if I mis-speak SeaJay,
was the implication that a large part of his belief was based on fear, and specifically the fear of hell as presented in the Bible was real.

This spin off was more on the positive belief of God and prayer. Again hindsight is 20/20 Sad.

I believe it is quite easy to make a distinction between what I believe about the creator God and something that is merely imaginary. First what would make "something" merely imaginary. I say that if something is always presented and aways accepted by a majority of the people and the majority of the time is a good indication it is merely imaginary. Also if it presents itself as merely imaginary it would be accepted and viewed as merely imaginary. A few examples I would present as meeting what I would think qualifies for an accepted view of what would be merely imaginary would include: the tooth fairy, fairytales, the Easter bunny, Flying Spaghetti Monster ( by self definition) , pink unicorns etc. it can reliably stated then that theses are merely imaginary by the majority of people.

Then what would serve reliably that there is a distinction between the God I believe as not just merely imaginary compaired to those above. The God I believe on is not taught and accepted by the majority of the people the majority of the time as being merely imaginary. The God I believe in does not define Himself as merely imaginary. I acknowledge that there are those who do teach and accept the God I believe as merely imaginary.

There are what I consider to be examples that the God I believe in is distinguished as much more than merely imaginary.

Examples that the God I believe in is not viewed as merely imaginary is:
God is taught that His Son Jesus came to earth. Is this just merely imaginary? The fact that the Georgia calendar marks that date and has been used and acknowledged that point in time with the designation BC and A. D. For hundreds of years to denofe that birth is more than merely imaginary

The founding fathers declared "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." To declare our unalienable rights are endowed on us by a Creator is definitely not viewing the God I believe in as merely imaginary.

Our National Motto "In God We Trust" , a law of the land since 1956 and first appearing on coins in 1864 is anything but merely imaginary

Princeton’s crest still says “Dei sub numine viget,” which is Latin for “Under God she flourishes.” Merely imaginary?

If one simply looks there is a multitude of evidence that the God I believe in is reliably distinguished differently than those above as merely imaginary when compared to fairy tales etc.

A final note, no I'm not saying any of this implies nor is offered, nor claims as proof of God. But is being presented as evidence that there is a multitude of evidence that there is a real distinction between the God I believe in and the other things noted above as merely imaginary.

Also note I acknowledge that for those who believe there is no god as definited as the one I believe in or lack a belief in or any god or gods I realize the above is meaningless other that the distinction noted.

So- a lot of people think it's real, so it's distinct from other imaginary things? Facepalm




Yeah. I haven't had time to sit down and respond to him point by point but that was one of the things I saw when skimming over his response. Belief makes it real. That seems to be the very definition of faith. I wonder what the threshold is? How many people believing in something makes it real? For instance the Japanese people overwhelmingly believed their leader was a god during world war two. I'm sure Hindus are taught and accept that the Hindu gods are real. So this method is anything but reliable.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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