Spin-off of Why I believe
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15-04-2017, 07:16 PM (This post was last modified: 15-04-2017 07:25 PM by Alla.)
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
JesseB Wrote:This post.... He can neither create nor abolish evil. So why call him god (rephrased for your benefit) At best by your current definition he's just a super hero, kinda like super man.
I probably need to say this. Evil does not exist in real world. Good does not exist in real world. But intelligent beings make choices that can be called "good" or "evil".
God can prevent someone from making evil choice IF(only IF) it interferes with His plan.
There are other worlds were evil choices are made by intelligent beings. Our God has nothing to do with those worlds because He did not create them. Someone else created them.
This is why I said that "evil" and "good" are eternal. Evil(meaning choices) always existed in different worlds, evil(meaning choices) exists in our world for now and it will be new worlds where evil(meaning choices) will exist.

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15-04-2017, 07:22 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
Gwaithmir Wrote:> Can you be more specific? What evidence do you have that scripture is anything but the work of primitive, fallible men?
If I had evidence I wouldn't need faith.
Gwaithmir Wrote:How do you differentiate "testimony" in the scriptures from mere storytelling?
by the power of the Holy Ghost.

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15-04-2017, 07:25 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(15-04-2017 07:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  
JesseB Wrote:This post.... He can neither create nor abolish evil. So why call him god (rephrased for your benefit) At best by your current definition he's just a super hero, kinda like super man.
I probably need to say this. Evil does not exist in real world. Good does not exist in real world. But intelligent beings make choices that can be called "good" or "evil".
God can prevent someone from making evil choice IF(only IF) it interferes with His plan.
There are other worlds were evil choices are made by intelligent beings. Our God has nothing to do with those worlds because He did not create them. Someone else created them.
This is why I said that "evil" and "good" are eternal. Evil always existed in different worlds, evil exists in our world for now and it will be new worlds where evil will exist.

If you stop at "Evil does not exist god does not exist" well then I would agree....

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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15-04-2017, 07:27 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(15-04-2017 07:25 PM)JesseB Wrote:  If you stop at "Evil does not exist god does not exist" well then I would agree....

But I didn't stop at that, did I?
It means that I don't mind if you disagree. Smile

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15-04-2017, 07:31 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(15-04-2017 07:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  
JesseB Wrote:This post.... He can neither create nor abolish evil. So why call him god (rephrased for your benefit) At best by your current definition he's just a super hero, kinda like super man.
I probably need to say this. Evil does not exist in real world. Good does not exist in real world. But intelligent beings make choices that can be called "good" or "evil".
God can prevent someone from making evil choice IF(only IF) it interferes with His plan.
There are other worlds were evil choices are made by intelligent beings. Our God has nothing to do with those worlds because He did not create them. Someone else created them.
This is why I said that "evil" and "good" are eternal. Evil always existed in different worlds, evil exists in our world for now and it will be new worlds where evil will exist.

> I'm afraid have to disagree with you there. Natural evils exist. Things like diseases and natural disasters are a very real part of this world. And when people do evil things, the evils they do are a very real part of reality.

> If God is truly omnipotent and omnibenevolent by definition, no plan that He puts in motion could possibly include evil. And, as JesseB has correctly deduced from my previous post, if God is neither able or willing to prevent evil, then why call him God?

> As a humanitarian, the good I have done throughout my life is a very real part of this world. The food I have put in peoples' mouths, the clothes I have put on their backs, and the funds I have given them to improve their lives does not simply exist in their imaginations.

> To say that good and evil don't exist in the real world indicates either a lack of basic observational skills on your part or a morbid denial of reality.
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15-04-2017, 07:41 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(15-04-2017 07:31 PM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  
(15-04-2017 07:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  I probably need to say this. Evil does not exist in real world. Good does not exist in real world. But intelligent beings make choices that can be called "good" or "evil".
God can prevent someone from making evil choice IF(only IF) it interferes with His plan.
There are other worlds were evil choices are made by intelligent beings. Our God has nothing to do with those worlds because He did not create them. Someone else created them.
This is why I said that "evil" and "good" are eternal. Evil always existed in different worlds, evil exists in our world for now and it will be new worlds where evil will exist.

> I'm afraid have to disagree with you there. Natural evils exist. Things like diseases and natural disasters are a very real part of this world. And when people do evil things, the evils they do are a very real part of reality.

> If God is truly omnipotent and omnibenevolent by definition, no plan that He puts in motion could possibly include evil. And, as JesseB has correctly deduced from my previous post, if God is neither able or willing to prevent evil, then why call him God?

> As a humanitarian, the good I have done throughout my life is a very real part of this world. The food I have put in peoples' mouths, the clothes I have put on their backs, and the funds I have given them to improve their lives does not simply exist in their imaginations.

> To say that good and evil don't exist in the real world indicates either a lack of basic observational skills on your part or a morbid denial of reality.

Well, I suppose depending on how you define both words would determine how much I agree with you. Hmm how do I put it.... disease does what it does, there's no intent meaning or purpose in it so it's not really evil (in a greater scheme of things)

Yet it causes suffering and harm, so from the perspective of a human with empathy and a desire to avoid pain ect then yes Evil does exist....

Then again I'm a pretty morbid fuck lol....
Generally when people talk about good and evil I default to what Christians mean by the two words and I flatly reject their vision of those words.

Hopefully that clarifies things to your satisfaction. And as always I fully acknowledge I could be wrong, these are simply my own personal views.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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15-04-2017, 07:47 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(15-04-2017 07:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  I probably need to say this. Evil does not exist in real world. Good does not exist in real world. But intelligent beings make choices that can be called "good" or "evil".
God can prevent someone from making evil choice IF(only IF) it interferes with His plan.
There are other worlds were evil choices are made by intelligent beings. Our God has nothing to do with those worlds because He did not create them. Someone else created them.
This is why I said that "evil" and "good" are eternal. Evil(meaning choices) always existed in different worlds, evil(meaning choices) exists in our world for now and it will be new worlds where evil(meaning choices) will exist.

I've read this one somewhere else before. It's an interesting take. Something about the default state of being is/equals/is defined as "evil", multiple Gods of multiple castes and different plans and goals, presumably staying out of each other's way and most but not all tending toward the big transcendent GOD as an ideal or even an imperative, the big transcendent GOD as both the source and destination, beginning and end alpha/omega bit, there's another mythology it reminds me of. Not Scientology, that's more satire than myth. It was a primitive one I think. I'll look. It also reminds me of multiverses. Or more like many minds. I guess this shouldn't be too surprising, just means religion and science borrow from the same myths for metaphor.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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15-04-2017, 08:10 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
Gwaithmir Wrote:> I'm afraid have to disagree with you there. Natural evils exist.
Things like diseases and natural disasters are a very real part of this world.
Yes, they(diseases and natural disasters) are real parts of our world but they are neither good nor evil. Those things by itself are neutral. But in eyes of men they can be either "good" or "evil". It depends on how we see them.
I can say that diseases are evil because they cause suffering, pain, misery. I also can say that deceases are good because they cause progress of men.

Gwaithmir Wrote:And when people do evil things, the evils they do are a very real part of reality.
Choices can be called "evil" if intention is evil. If intention is good then the same choice is not evil.
I poke a child with a needle because I want to hurt him/her. This is evil choice. I poke a child with a needle(immunization) to save his/her life. This is not evil choice.
The same action but different intention. Action by itself without any intentions neither good nor evil but neutral.

Gwaithmir Wrote:> If God is truly omnipotent and omnibenevolent by definition, no plan that He puts in motion could possibly include evil.
Again, it is important to know how writers of the books(scriptures) define those words.

To include evil is a blessing. Without opposition you won't be able to choose between right and wrong. Without opposition every action you make is neutral.
Neutral actions do not bring happiness(joy). Only good(RIGHT) choices bring happiness(joy).
Without evil there is no good.

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16-04-2017, 01:19 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(15-04-2017 06:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  
SeaJay Wrote:Where did you get this line of reasoning from?

from the Book of Mormon.
You are a Latter Day Saint?

I was LDS for 10 years

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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16-04-2017, 01:30 AM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(15-04-2017 06:32 PM)Alla Wrote:  This is what I believe:
God prevents evil only when evil interferes with His plan.
God did not create evil. Evil exists from eternity to eternity. It means that evil was never created/it has no absolute beginning, evil will never be destroyed/it has no absolute end.

Not sure what you are saying here because the bible says God created evil

Isaiah 45:77 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I checked the above and it is in the Hebrew too.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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