Spin-off of Why I believe
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16-04-2017, 02:52 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 02:42 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(16-04-2017 02:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  I bet that zero of WD's points will be addressed.

I agree with you, but not in the way you think. Drinking Beverage
k

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16-04-2017, 02:56 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 12:42 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Gwaithmir Wrote:> Faith is the abnegation of rational thinking.
This is not how I define word "faith". To me "faith" means something very different.

Gwaithmir Wrote:What evidence do you have that the Holy Ghost exists and has any influence on scripture?
I believe that the Holy Ghost exists because of the influence He has on me. My personal testimony is foundation of my faith. When my personal testimony is growing my faith is growing.

Gwaithmir replies: In a rational discussion, what you believe does not count as evidence. Neither is your personal testimony. Whether or not your faith is growing is irrelevant to my question. Present evidence for the existence of the Holy Spirit and prove through rational arguments and evidence that he inspired what was written in the Bible.

Gwaithmir Wrote:> Consider the following:
"And they shall stand in despair before the white cliffs of the world, and shall chant from their empty tomes in vain, for their words are nothing! And ErĂș shall prevail against His enemies and they shall be cast into the Void, for their enchantments are naught and their gods are helpless before Him." (The Silmarillion, 17:82)
Why should I consider this?

Gwaithmir replies: Because it's a quote from scripture. Until you rationally prove otherwise, and according to your own standards of knowledge, my scripture is just as valid as your scripture. Checkmate!

Gwaithmir Wrote:> And you still have not resolved the problem of evil.
I am not sure what you are saying. I was not trying to solve problem of evil. I only shared my belief that problem of evil exists from eternity to eternity. Problem of evil can be solved in some parts of the reality. Evil can have relative beginning and relative end but it has no absolute beginning and no absolute end.

Gwaithmir replies: Nevertheless, until you solve the problem of evil, your claims for a benevolent God are irrational and self-contradictory. You have not solved the problem of evil "in some parts of reality." Whether or not evil have a relative beginning or end is irrelevant to my arguments. You either don't fully comprehend the problem or you are obfuscating because you cannot rationally address the issue.

There are no such things as absolute beginning and absolute end. But there are many relative beginnings and many relative ends.

Gwaithmir replies: Again, irrelevant to the points I've made.
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16-04-2017, 03:03 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
God is always able to prevent evil in the worlds(realities) He organized.
God has this power, ability.
When it is necessary to prevent evil He will do it. When it is not necessary He won't

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16-04-2017, 03:07 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 03:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  God is always able to prevent evil in the worlds(realities) He organized.
God has this power, ability.
When it is necessary to prevent evil He will do it. When it is not necessary He won't

> If God is able to prevent evil, but doesn't, then he is malevolent and/or criminally negligent. Dodgy
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16-04-2017, 03:10 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
Gwaithmir Wrote:Is he able to prevent evil, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Little child will tell you that shots are evil. They cause fear, pain and suffering. GOOD parent is able to prevent this "evil" but not willing.
Why? Is it because he or she malevolent? This was rhetorical question.
What in the eyes of a child is evil, it is good and right in the eyes of GOOD parent

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16-04-2017, 03:13 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 02:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:Isn't that just a cop out for all the shitty things that happen?

I can not refute this argument.

Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:Like a four year old dying of cancer -- it's part of god's plan because otherwise it wouldn't have happened?
I believe that it is important to learn pleasure and pain, joy and sorrow in this life.

Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:Then obviously you also can't say...wait...stop...don't bother there are no gods at all
Smile

Although I've quoted Alla, I am not looking for a reply from her. I just want to note that if a four year old dies horribly of cancer to teach somebody a lesson, the question arises: Who is the student in this scenario? The sick child? The parent? Children without cancer?

The child doesn't learn from the pain; the child dies.

The parents experience sadness and pain, but as adults they have already learned about pleasure and pain, etc., so they learn nothing new.

Children without cancer learn to be afraid of something that they have no control over--net negative.

Maybe the doctor learns something, but you'd think God could figure out a different way to deliver the information.

A God that uses someone else's pain and death as a teaching tool is a straight out monster. Humans should oppose this being, not venerate it or aim to become something like it.
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16-04-2017, 03:18 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 03:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Gwaithmir Wrote:Is he able to prevent evil, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Little child will tell you that shots are evil. They cause fear, pain and suffering. GOOD parent is able to prevent this "evil" but not willing.
Why? Is it because he or she malevolent? This was rhetorical question.
What in the eyes of a child is evil, it is good and right in the eyes of GOOD parent

> Inappropriate analogy. God is supposed to be all-loving and all-powerful. Evil cannot exist unless he wills it to exist. Evil does exist. Therefore, God is either a malevolent being, or else he does not exist by reason of self-contradiction.
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16-04-2017, 03:19 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
Julep Wrote:I just want to note that if a four year old dies horribly of cancer to teach somebody a lesson, the question arises: Who is the student in this scenario? The sick child? The parent? Children without cancer?
Everyone is the student in this world. We all learn what it means to be in the world where all kind of bad things happen. We learn what fallen world is all about.

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16-04-2017, 03:20 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 03:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Gwaithmir Wrote:Is he able to prevent evil, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Little child will tell you that shots are evil. They cause fear, pain and suffering. GOOD parent is able to prevent this "evil" but not willing.
Why? Is it because he or she malevolent? This was rhetorical question.
What in the eyes of a child is evil, it is good and right in the eyes of GOOD parent

Terrible example, because you eventually can prove to the kid when they get older why it was necessary with actual evidence. You can never prove to a person anything about god because no one has even proven he's real.
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16-04-2017, 03:21 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 03:19 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Julep Wrote:I just want to note that if a four year old dies horribly of cancer to teach somebody a lesson, the question arises: Who is the student in this scenario? The sick child? The parent? Children without cancer?
Everyone is the student in this world. We all learn what it means to be in the world where all kind of bad things happen. We learn what fallen world is all about.

It's it's fallen, it's god's own goddamn fault it's that way.
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