Spin-off of Why I believe
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16-04-2017, 04:47 PM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2017 04:51 PM by JesseB.)
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 03:53 PM)AB517 Wrote:  
(16-04-2017 03:18 PM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  > Inappropriate analogy. God is supposed to be all-loving and all-powerful. Evil cannot exist unless he wills it to exist. Evil does exist. Therefore, God is either a malevolent being, or else he does not exist by reason of self-contradiction.

I don't believe in god. but ...

1) supposed to be all loving so there can't be evil. that's stupid. he can't love and have evil? really? observations say different.

2) all powerful so he must of willed it to exist. all powerful doesn't mean stupid. No evil, no grace. We might as well be oswald.

3) either malevolent or doesn't exists due to self contradiction. well, this is so limited I aint even bothering. Theists can figure their own way around this one.

You seem to be claiming knowledge that we don't, as atheists, don't have. I must say, simple to get around even for the shallowest of theists. This atheists is about the shallowest of theists I know.

? There are no observations that even hint that any god exists. So... Observations don't really say shit on the subject....

However I think I do get what you are trying to say. I'm not entirely sure I agree with you, but I think it's worth further consideration.


OH FUCK me....
This is the Epicurus, thing. The problem is you're not looking at the whole picture here....
Here's the full argument.


“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

You are objecting to some people taking an extreme summarization I think of this

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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16-04-2017, 04:56 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 04:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  when you do good to others it makes you a better person and it brings joy to you and to those whom you serve.
So in gods hierarchy of what is and isn't important it is MORE important to let rape happen so people can feel good about themselves helping the victims of rape than it is to STOP rapes from happening so we don't have rape victims any more.

That is psychotic and evil. Your god is psychotic and evil. YOU are psychotic and evil for supporting this system.

(16-04-2017 04:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  If there are those who suffer and they can't help themselves but you can help them then you are responsible for them.
Ya know.....I can think of someone who has the ability to help those who can't help themselves. God. Drinking Beverage

So by your "logic" god IS responsible for helping people because he does have the ability to help those that can not help themselves? And because he does NOT act on that responsibility he is an irresponsible god at best and an evil one at worst.

So we must meet a standard that even your god can't? That's fuckin' dumb.

(16-04-2017 04:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  God wants you to learn this responsibility.
Apparently, because he was too stupid to learn it himself.Hobo

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16-04-2017, 05:00 PM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2017 05:04 PM by JesseB.)
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
I mean, I like that Alla tries to understand other points of view, at least as best as she seems able.

However it's worth noting she's kinda an Agnostic Theist. Her belief is taken 100% on faith alone and her own feelings and things she tells herself. Frankly the book she gets the ideas from doesn't really matter anyway. It is unlikely any logic will ever really be able to reach her with regards to her own thoughts and feelings on the god questions because I'm pretty sure she's quite happy with the decision she has made. So I certainly don't correct her out of any misguided sense of thinking I can have any meaningful affect on what she thinks, nor do I debate her because, what's there to debate. In any practical sense we both kinda agree, the existence of a god can't be proven, she has no real reasons for her position and she's perfectly ok with that.

I just correct things that kinda annoy me a bit when she gets them wrong, for the most part. Oh and when she brings up concepts that piss me the fuck off, like the idea that raping children is a moral imperative at times in the bible because god ordered it (which is in the bible) Like no reasonable theist is willing to stand on that.. I'm not sure why she feels comfortable using that argument.


It's like debating someone taking a hard stance on syllogism

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16-04-2017, 05:12 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 03:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  
SYZ Wrote:I regard the fact that every day of the year, around 16,000 children under the age of 4 will die in sub-Saharan Africa from malnutrition, dehydration, and preventable diseases as an evil thing.

Can I ask you this question:
If God takes care of them what are you going to do?


Uh... I'm sorry, but I don't understand the thrust of your question. Huh

Quote:Is this GOOD FOR YOU to learn to bring relief to those who suffer? Is this GOOD FOR YOU to share with those who don't have what you have?

Nominally—of course—these things are "good". But not for me personally. They're primarily good for the disadvantaged people who are the beneficiaries of my concern and/or practical help. I do "good" things for others not out of self-aggrandisement, but because of my innate empathy and humanism. I don't need someone else (like a god?) to tell me how to be a good person, or look after other's best interests.

Quote:What does it do to you when you help hungry and needy out of love and compassion? What does it do to those who see your love and sacrifice of your time, your money, your talents?

It creates and reinforces a tangible sense of a compassionate humanity all round, both for the giver and the recipient.

—Could you also please address my earlier question to you:

"Can you explain Alla why he (your god) lets all those little kids die a painful, drawn-out death? "

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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16-04-2017, 05:25 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
WhiskeyDebates Wrote:Then he chooses not to stop evil when he can and is BY NECCACITY not omnibenevolent.
If not to stop evil is good/right choice then, yes, God is still good even though He did not prevent evil.
If it is good for you to learn something from the trial(evil) then God will not prevent it. God wants what is good for you.

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16-04-2017, 05:26 PM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2017 05:31 PM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
Here's some of the problems with the Mormon theodicy:

1. It prioritizes a vague value of learning over ALL suffering.

The body count can reach well into a major extinction event, but as long as someone learns something, then it's ok, that's deeply immoral.

2. It never explains WHAT we are supposed to learn or WHO is supposed to learn this lesson.

If we eliminated cancer tomorrow, did we simply need to learn enough genetics to eliminate cancer? The population at large won't have a clue as to how a cancer cure works, only scientists and people that inform themselves will learn this alleged lesson, the ignorant will be able to benefit from this cure by just taking the cure without any lesson learned.

This is just stupid when only the more learned will actually learn this alleged lesson and most of the population will be oblivious, this puts the majority of ignorant people at the mercy of the smartest as well as off-loading responsibility of curing diseases or eliminating suffering onto the smartest of us, it's an arbitrary shifting of responsibility that is a transparent post-hoc rationalization for suffering that abrogates god from responsibility. Drinking Beverage

3. In the case of individual suffering, if the person dies, then there is no lesson to be learned.

The individual cannot learn if they're dead, this would include children too young to comprehend what is happening to them. This is a very poor rationalization for suffering that has the same weaknesses to apparent pointless suffering as standard Christian theodicies.

Pointless suffering blows a hole in this post-hoc rationalization since it depends on a purpose to make it work, if there is no lesson to be learned, then this is simply untenable and irrational.

4. Every aspect of this theodicy is a post-hoc rationalization for a god THAT DOES NOTHING! Every argument you want to make that uses this theodicy works just as well under the idea of a god that is non-existent, it basically argues for the god who isn't there, it just tries to assign a post-hoc purpose to the basic and unmistakable FACT that god does NOTHING. Drinking Beverage

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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16-04-2017, 05:48 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
SYZ Wrote:Uh... I'm sorry, but I don't understand the thrust of your question
If God helps all those people in the world while you, me and many millions of people are capable to help them then God will take from us an opportunity to learn how to be good by helping someone out of love and compassion. It is very important to learn to be compassionate.

SYZ Wrote:Nominally—of course—these things are "good". But not for me personally.
Yes, they are good for you personally because when you do them out of love and compassion you experience joy. It is good for you to have joy. If God prevents this evil(hunger and suffering) while you, me and many millions of people have capacity to do this(to prevent hunger and suffering) then we will never learn compassion.

SYZ Wrote:"Can you explain Alla why he (your god) lets all those little kids die a painful, drawn-out death? "
If I was God I would ask all those who have capacity to help those children these questions: why did YOU let all those children to die? Why didn't YOU help them when you could?
I, God, gave you an opportunity to learn something good and you blew it. Now I am taking these children home where they suffer no more.

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16-04-2017, 05:58 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
Alla Wrote:If there are those who suffer and they can't help themselves but you can help them then you are responsible for them.
WiskeyDebates Wrote:So by your "logic" god IS responsible for helping people because he does have the ability to help those that can not help themselves?
Yes, this is why He sends those who can help.
It is God's responsibility to send those who are capable to help. Why to send someone? Because God has one more responsibility - it is to give them an opportunity to learn to serve others out of love and compassion.

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16-04-2017, 05:59 PM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2017 06:03 PM by JesseB.)
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 05:48 PM)Alla Wrote:  
SYZ Wrote:Uh... I'm sorry, but I don't understand the thrust of your question
If God helps all those people in the world while you, me and many millions of people are capable to help them then God will take from us an opportunity to learn how to be good by helping someone out of love and compassion. It is very important to learn to be compassionate.

SYZ Wrote:Nominally—of course—these things are "good". But not for me personally.
Yes, they are good for you personally because when you do them out of love and compassion you experience joy. It is good for you to have joy. If God prevents this evil(hunger and suffering) while you, me and many millions of people have capacity to do this(to prevent hunger and suffering) then we will never learn compassion.

SYZ Wrote:"Can you explain Alla why he (your god) lets all those little kids die a painful, drawn-out death? "
If I was God I would ask all those who have capacity to help those children these questions: why did YOU let all those children to die? Why didn't YOU help them when you could?
I, God, gave you an opportunity to learn something good and you blew it. Now I am taking these children home where they suffer no more.

Yea.... why did you let yourself be murdered so your children could be abducted and raped.... and left to starve to death....

You are oversimplifying the world in order to stuff it into your narrow box of how the world works (according to your god)

Edit^
I once dated a woman who had been abducted by 2 men right from inside her home and kept in their basement for years brutally tortured and raped and when they were finally done they cut out her kidneys and left her for dead. She hated her body covered in scars but to me she is an amazing beautiful woman who know's what it means to survive but why exactly didn't her parents stop this? Or maybe like the cops? no... fuck that, no one could have prevented it. The world is what it is, not all parents are to blame for the suffering and deaths of their children. STOP oversimplifying the world.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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16-04-2017, 06:00 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
I think I lost bet. Big Grin

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