Spin-off of Why I believe
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16-04-2017, 08:08 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 07:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  
JesseB Wrote:...despite some of the rather cruel things you say without understanding what exactly you are saying (at times I think you do say some very cruel harmful things without meaning
I want to understand. Could you, please, give some examples or at least one example.

Unfortunately we've been trying to point it out. The evidence is here within the last few pages of this thread alone, yet... The message isn't getting through the filters you've put in place. I don't know if I could reach you without physically arranging things so you see what I am talking about first hand. That would involve some travel and exposing you to some really fucked up hellish situations so you can see what happens in peoples lives and how your words, and ideas are genuinely harmful to those people despite your desire and mistaken belief that you are helping them. I don't think I could show you in text, I think this is something you would have to experience for yourself.

Edit^ I can tell you, when you see me pissed off in text... There's a fucking reason for it, those are the times you are being most harmful with your ideas. I just don't know how to point it out in a way you will understand.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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16-04-2017, 08:09 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 05:25 PM)Alla Wrote:  
WhiskeyDebates Wrote:Then he chooses not to stop evil when he can and is BY NECCACITY not omnibenevolent.
If not to stop evil is good/right choice then, yes, God is still good even though He did not prevent evil.
If it is good for you to learn something from the trial(evil) then God will not prevent it. God wants what is good for you.

No, you are just making childish excuses for your nonsensical assertions. As I already pointed out you have a conclusion and you are ignoring every single scrap of evidence staring you right in your vacant face that your conclusion is wrong and indefensible so you can maintain that conclusion.
You have taken your faith, a willingness to believe things without evidence, which is bad enough as it is, and taken it to the extreme that so many other people like you have in the past which is to ignore evidence that you are wrong.

In your attempt to untangle your cognitive dissonance all you have done is tie yourself up worse and say things that contradict themselves.

You said that god only interferes with evil if it gets in the way of his plan. You then claimed that evil is a part of his plan to teach us. Which means he doesn't interfere with any evil at all making him a useless god.

You said god can do evil if he wants, then you say he can't because if he did he wouldn't be god.

You say he is omnibenevolent but turn around and say he only prevents evil when it suits his purpose betraying the fact that you don't have an understanding of what the word even means.

You say god interferes with evil when it goes against his plan but he didn't interfere with the fall which means it was part of his plan making every single thing that has gone wrong since the fall HIS FUCKING FAULT AND DESIGN.

You say he is all loving and all knowing yet if given the opportunity you would not be caught fucking dead trying to emulate the way he treats his children because you KNOW it's fucking evil.


You are trying to fit the god you believe in, one that would drown babies and exchange favors for murdered daughters, into the empathy and morality of the modern age and it does not fit which is why your shit is nonsensical. You worship a god that thinks having rape victims is more important than not having rape and you view this sentiment as being morally superior.

We don't teach our children to empathize with rape victims by raping other people in front of them so they can see the effects. that is psychotic and it is how, according to you, your god teaches.

Your beliefs have zero internal consistency, you respond to six different problems with six different answers that all make no sense when compared to each other but because you think you answered each individual one you don't notice that you haven't really defended a fecking thing you believe in any substantive way. You can't see the forest for the trees.


Your ability to think for yourself is so beyond damaged you will defend a global genocide in one breath and with the other try to tell me the genocidal maniac has my best interests in heart. Or that the people being systamatically murdered are to blaim for it. Are you really so stupid as to believe this yourself?

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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16-04-2017, 08:13 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 08:09 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(16-04-2017 05:25 PM)Alla Wrote:  If not to stop evil is good/right choice then, yes, God is still good even though He did not prevent evil.
If it is good for you to learn something from the trial(evil) then God will not prevent it. God wants what is good for you.

No, you are just making childish excuses for your nonsensical assertions. As I already pointed out you have a conclusion and you are ignoring every single scrap of evidence staring you right in your vacant face that your conclusion is wrong and indefensible so you can maintain that conclusion.
You have taken your faith, a willingness to believe things without evidence, which is bad enough as it is, and taken it to the extreme that so many other people like you have in the past which is to ignore evidence that you are wrong.

In your attempt to untangle your cognitive dissonance all you have done is tie yourself up worse and say things that contradict themselves.

You said that god only interferes with evil if it gets in the way of his plan. You then claimed that evil is a part of his plan to teach us. Which means he doesn't interfere with any evil at all making him a useless god.

You said god can do evil if he wants, then you say he can't because if he did he wouldn't be god.

You say he is omnibenevolent but turn around and say he only prevents evil when it suits his purpose betraying the fact that you don't have an understanding of what the word even means.

You say god interferes with evil when it goes against his plan but he didn't interfere with the fall which means it was part of his plan making every single thing that has gone wrong since the fall HIS FUCKING FAULT AND DESIGN.

You say he is all loving and all knowing yet if given the opportunity you would not be caught fucking dead trying to emulate the way he treats his children because you KNOW it's fucking evil.


You are trying to fit the god you believe in, one that would drown babies and exchange favors for murdered daughters, into the empathy and morality of the modern age and it does not fit which is why your shit is nonsensical. You worship a god that thinks having rape victims is more important than not having rape and you view this sentiment as being morally superior.

We don't teach our children to empathize with rape victims by raping other people in front of them so they can see the effects. that is psychotic and it is how, according to you, your god teaches.

Your beliefs have zero internal consistency, you respond to six different problems with six different answers that all make no sense when compared to each other but because you think you answered each individual one you don't notice that you haven't really defended a fecking thing you believe in any substantive way. You can't see the forest for the trees.


Your ability to think for yourself is so beyond damaged you will defend a global genocide in one breath and with the other try to tell me the genocidal maniac has my best interests in heart. Or that the people being systamatically murdered are to blaim for it. Are you really so stupid as to believe this yourself?

I second this.
Summery below.



DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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16-04-2017, 08:30 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 05:58 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Alla Wrote:If there are those who suffer and they can't help themselves but you can help them then you are responsible for them.
WiskeyDebates Wrote:So by your "logic" god IS responsible for helping people because he does have the ability to help those that can not help themselves?
Yes, this is why He sends those who can help.
It is God's responsibility to send those who are capable to help. Why to send someone? Because God has one more responsibility - it is to give them an opportunity to learn to serve others out of love and compassion.

Then he is not omnibenevolent. You do not understand what the word means.

And again you are fucking shifting the goal posts. You said that if you can help people who can't help themselves you have a responsibility to do so. I point out that that includes your god, the SINGLE person in all the universe who could meet that responsibility instantaneously and with zero cost to himself, and your response is to define him out of the problem?

Why the fuck is the ONE person who could actually make a permanent difference exempt from serving others with love and compassion? Why does he, and he alone, get to exempt himself from doing jack shit and delegating his own responsibilities to other people; people who, unlike him, can't do ANYTHING to fix the problem just tend to the aftermath?
Am I allowed to pawn my responsibilities off on a toddler?
Why the fuck is the god of the Old Testament, who solves almost every problem he has with mass murder, the ONLY person that does NOT have to learn to treat people with love and compassion?
In what fucking way is a person with a clear history of genocide qualified to teach ANY of us about compassion?

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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16-04-2017, 08:43 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 03:26 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(16-04-2017 03:21 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  It's it's fallen, it's god's own goddamn fault it's that way.

It is GOOD to learn what fallen world is.
It is not God's fault that this world is fallen, it was our choice to experience this world.

"this world is fallen" is an absurd, invented concept without any substance.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-04-2017, 09:42 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
JesseB Wrote:Edit^ I can tell you, when you see me pissed off..., those are the times you are being most harmful with your ideas.
Sorry, I cause harm to you. May be you should ignore my posts from now on.
P.S. You were not helpful, so, I still don't see what you see. I may continue to harm you with my ideas unintentionally.

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16-04-2017, 10:01 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
WiskeyDebates Wrote:You said that god only interferes with evil if it gets in the way of his plan. You then claimed that evil is a part of his plan to teach us. Which means he doesn't interfere with any evil at all making him a useless god.
No, I didn't say tat God doesn't interfere with any evil at all. I said He prevents evil only when it interferes with His plans/goals.

WiskeyDebates Wrote:You said god can do evil if he wants, then you say he can't because if he did he wouldn't be god.
I said that God has moral agency, He can choose between good and evil, He chooses good.

WiskeyDebates Wrote:You say he is omnibenevolent but turn around and say he only prevents evil when it suits his purpose betraying the fact that you don't have an understanding of what the word even means.
I have never said that God is omnibenevolent. I don't even know who came up with this word.

WiskeyDebates Wrote:You say god interferes with evil when it goes against his plan but he didn't interfere with the fall which means it was part of his plan
Yes, it was part of His plan. If it was not part of His plan it would never happened.

WiskeyDebates Wrote:making every single thing that has gone wrong since the fall HIS .... FAULT AND DESIGN.
It is His design, He made sure that it would be possible for Adam and Eve to become fallen people. It was very important that Adam and Eve would make this choice.

WiskeyDebates Wrote:You say he is all loving
I have never said this.

WiskeyDebates Wrote:and all knowing yet if given the opportunity you would not be caught f----g dead trying to emulate the way he treats his children because you KNOW it's f----g evil.
There is claim that He is not only Mercy but He is also Justice. Is Justice evil? Those who face justice can say: "yes, it is".

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16-04-2017, 10:19 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 09:42 PM)Alla Wrote:  
JesseB Wrote:Edit^ I can tell you, when you see me pissed off..., those are the times you are being most harmful with your ideas.
Sorry, I cause harm to you. May be you should ignore my posts from now on.
P.S. You were not helpful, so, I still don't see what you see. I may continue to harm you with my ideas unintentionally.

Yea... that was kinda my point. I lack the ability to communicate in a way that can really reach you. This has always been a problem for me.

And you lack the power to do any real harm to me, or even make me like... emotionally compromised. Let's just say I've experienced far worse in life than anything you could put me through on some internet forum. I've seen that reality can be far worse than any hell religious people like you have ever even imagined.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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16-04-2017, 10:56 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 03:19 PM)Alla Wrote:  Everyone is the student in this world. We all learn what it means to be in the world where all kind of bad things happen. We learn what fallen world is all about.
It all seems so random and meaningless to me

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16-04-2017, 11:26 PM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2017 11:35 PM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(16-04-2017 10:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  
WiskeyDebates Wrote:You said that god only interferes with evil if it gets in the way of his plan. You then claimed that evil is a part of his plan to teach us. Which means he doesn't interfere with any evil at all making him a useless god.
No, I didn't say tat God doesn't interfere with any evil at all. I said He prevents evil only when it interferes with His plans/goals.
Reading comprehension Alla, still a problem for you I see.

I never said that you said that he never interferes, it was merely the only logical conclusion of a god who only interferes with evil when it's against his plan who has evil happening to people as his plan.

(16-04-2017 04:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  I said that God has moral agency, He can choose between good and evil, He chooses good.
Except that's just demonstrably not the case. A cursory examination of the bible shows that he frequently loses his temper and kills people because of it. Not as a lesson, not to teach compassion, but simply because he gets really really mad and murders people for petty reasons.
This is a theme throughout the WHOLE book, and you are not going to get away from this. You can not make a genocidal maniac into a loving teacher just because you NEED to for your bullshit to make sense.
We can evaluate his actions and we can evaluate his own beliefs by looking at what examples he himself gives as righteous men.

Abraham is a man willing to kill his own child based on voices in his head.
Moses is a murderer who aids god in his task of mass infanticide, routinely murders entire groups of people for not doing what he tells them to, and on at least one occasion yells at his followers for NOT killing babies, and also commands the enslavement and rape of pre-teen girls.
Lot offers his own daughters to be violently gang raped by an entire city so his house guests don't have to be bothered.
Noah is a violent drunk who blames all his own faults on the people around him and makes no attempt to talk god out of a global genocide.
David is a man who used dismembered body parts as currency to buy women like cattle.

These are all considered by god to be morally righteous people.

So no god does NOT choose good, nor does he chose good people. In both his actions and words he is consistently evil, petty, vindictive, manipulative, and vain. This is not a matter of man and god having different notions of what evil is, this is an example of a god who in every way possible considered every vile and evil act possible to be good and righteous. What is truly disturbing is you think we need to learn lessons to be MORE like this.

WiskeyDebates Wrote:You say god interferes with evil when it goes against his plan but he didn't interfere with the fall which means it was part of his plan
Yes, it was part of His plan. If it was not part of His plan it would never happened.
Then according to your theology he is the source of every bit of suffering on this planet. This means that every murder and every rape happened exactly as he planned it to happen making him very much responsible. This goes past allowing evil to happen and into actively planning for it to happen. If I plan a bank robbery and ensure that nothing can stop it, but I don't commit the robbery myself I'm still guilty of the robbery.

(16-04-2017 04:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  It is His design, He made sure that it would be possible for Adam and Eve to become fallen people. It was very important that Adam and Eve would make this choice.
That is not a choice. "If it's not part of his plan it would never happen", thus Adam and Eve could never not fall as that eventuality was not a part of his plan. Not only that but if Kitty Genovese being murdered in 1964 was not an evil outside of his plan (which it can't be because he would have stopped it) and her murder was only able to happen because we are in a fallen world than either a.) the fall HAD to happen and would always happen so Adam and Eve had no choice and are not responsible or b.) there is no plan and he is making it up as he goes.

Every murder, every rape, since the fall required the Fall to happen and given that every single one of those rapes and murders was part of gods plan.... for those plans to happen the Fall MUST happen. So for gods plan to work the one thing that he can not have happen, and in fact would actively interfere with according to you, is Adam and Eve NOT failing.
If Adam and Eve do NOT fall then gods entire plan of using pain and suffering to teach us can't happen. So there is no way god can NOT interfere and MAKE Adam and Eve fail, as his entire plan requires it. It's not a question of making it possible for Adam and Eve to become fallen people it is the ONLY outcome that allows his plan to function. It has to happen or his plan fails.

That is not a choice you dumbass, it's a fucking trap.

(16-04-2017 04:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  There is claim that He is not only Mercy but He is also Justice.
First off fuck you, that didn't address my question at all. I asked you why, if god is such a perfect example of love and goodness, do you not emulate his example by teaching your kids lessons via rape and murder.
And I'll again answer the question for you: because any parent who tried to teach their children compassion and empathy by murdering people in front of them would be rightly considered evil. Moral creatures do not learn or teach in this manner, your god is a psychopathic fool.

Secondly, that is fucking stupid and the claim makes no sense. Mercy is the suspension of justice. You can not have both justice and mercy they are mutually incompatible.


(16-04-2017 04:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  Is Justice evil? Those who face justice can say: "yes, it is".
Again you psychotic bitch, you're arguing that standing by and allowing mass rape is a form of justice. Just like you argued that allowing genocide is the same as vaccinating a child.

Your mind is diseased, which leads me to ask you a question: You said that god sends other people to help those that can't help themselves. Has it ever occurred to you that your god sent you us to teach you how to fucking think given you can't seem to do it yourself? Drinking Beverage

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