Spin-off of Why I believe
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11-04-2017, 06:41 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
Just hanging around waiting for the spin-offs to ease over into spam territory. Girl_nails

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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11-04-2017, 06:48 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(11-04-2017 05:44 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(11-04-2017 05:33 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  So. The point. You figure it out yet?

Heh. I can quote myself. Heh.

Anyway...

The point in bringing up suicide bombers is not that islam and chrisitianity are the same.

The point is that muslim suicide bombers are acting on FAITH in their god.

Why is their faith wrong and your faith right?

Every believer claims to have the ONE TRUE FAITH.

Until a believer provides empirical evidence, something concrete, verifiable, testable and repeatable, then faith is meaningless.

Faith is not a virtue. Faith is gullibility.

I agree that Muslim suicide bombers are acting on faith in Allah and the teachings of Islam. I would say neither faith is wrong but is simply an indication of their adherence of a belief they hold to be true. Perhaps it would be better to ask why is the object of one person's faith right and the ofject of another person's wrong? I would then say neither is wrong to them. They are simply exercising their held belief in Islam and its teachings just as an atheist is exercising a belief that deities do not exist and having a disregard to any religious teachings and Christians are exercising their belief in Christianity. Each of the three beliefs believe they are right and in a relative world each can be seen as to be right in their own eyes. There in lies the problem with relative truth as opposed to absolute truth.

So as not to dodge the question of why is one is right and one wrong I would simply ask, Is it right to kill someone simply for what they believe. Curious as to how you might answer the right/wrong question?
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11-04-2017, 07:05 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(11-04-2017 02:59 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(11-04-2017 12:12 PM)whateverist Wrote:  See, I'd appreciate that and commend you if I could get it out of my head that you are just working hard to earn brownie points and a good after-life outcome. Sorry.

And you would entitled to that opinion rightly so just as we all are. The problem with doing something to earn brownie points by doing good from my view point as a Christian is God knows my heart and there are no brownies for things done for selfish reasons. If a child carries out garage expecting to be given a dollar or two is one thing if a child carries out the garbage simply because he loves his parents that is another thing entirely

Idiotic dichotomy.

A child can carry out garbage because he loves his parents, or because he's expecting a reward or punishment, OR because he understands why the garbage needs to be carried out, because his parents have treated him as a member of the household who is capable of assenting to the idea of why garbage needs to be put out. The parents don't have to threaten eternal damnation, they just need to present the evidence. Also, 1) the onus of persuasion, in this case, is on the parents, as they are more knowledgeable about household management, and 2) no parent in their right mind demands that a chore be performed "joyfully" or "lovingly"--just that the shit gets done.

Your god doesn't care to present evidence that would convince us to carry out his chores, and also he demands that the chores be done with false emotions. A monster. Sorry that you're stuck with him.
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11-04-2017, 07:16 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(11-04-2017 08:38 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  More food for thought: How long would an atheist be allowed to post on a christian forum before being banned?
Well on the Catholic board I used to mod on, the answer seems to be indefinitely. He's the loyal opposition as it were.

(11-04-2017 08:45 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Word of warning, you shit the rug, you will be gone.
But Moms...what if there's an accident? Tongue

(11-04-2017 12:34 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Read more at http://mobile.wnd.com/2004/12/28152/#sfz...Res7K6m.99


Why do you suppose that when you go to the hospital, doctors give you medicine and actual treatment instead of prayers to recite? Yes, apparently you are actually the only one that questions the claim fact that science cures people more than prayer.

Science cures disease for real. Prayer makes people feel happier. Those are different things.

...wait...World Nut Daily is "proof" now? I, as your fellow theist, second the call for scientific link instead.



(11-04-2017 04:44 PM)Vera Wrote:  And we all know how much Xtians like playing the martyr (as long as it doesn't result in any *real* discomfort... or even mild inconvenience, really.) Drinking Beverage

Geeze Vera, stop persecuting me!! (Don't think you are...in fact I have a No Drama List on Facebook primarily due to the 'Christians' in my life who scream persecution if I so much as post a link to a source they disagree with and had one youth minister rip me a new one about how I'm not a real Christian because I'm: A. Catholic and B. Post things critical of his version of Evangelical Christianity.)

(11-04-2017 04:53 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  
(11-04-2017 03:50 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  And the child who blows up a shopping mall with a suicide vest per god's instructions gets the most brownie points of all. Your reasoning faculty appears childish.

Unless you have evidence of a suicide bomber of any age yelling anything other than Allahn Akbar I can only assume your are:

1 lacking knowledge of different religions of the world and Christianity

2 seriously out of touch with current events

3 your hostility towards God is showing and duly noted

Well considering the first recorded suicide 'bombing' as it were was committed by Christian soldiers during the Crusades against Muslims by the Knights Templar lighting one of their own ships on fire, filled with Christians, to kill ten times their number of Muslims...heh.

Or how about how the Tamil Tigers, a secular movement and one of the most prolific users of suicide bombings in the world are primarily Hindus, but state that their reasons are nationalist, and not based in religion. They're not shouting 'Allahu Akbar', which, funny enough means "God is Great".

(11-04-2017 06:48 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  They are simply exercising their held belief in Islam and its teachings just as an atheist is exercising a belief that deities do not exist and having a disregard to any religious teachings and Christians are exercising their belief in Christianity. Each of the three beliefs believe they are right and in a relative world each can be seen as to be right in their own eyes. There in lies the problem with relative truth as opposed to absolute truth.
But to quote Pontius Pilate as he casts Christ into the Crucifixion that we commemorate this Friday, "What is truth?" I think that's at the center of what was being asked, and how does one know that truth is in fact the truth?

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11-04-2017, 07:24 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
Nine replies since my post, A_Thinking_Theist, but no reply to me? WTF, ATT?

Okay, I see how it's gonna be.
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11-04-2017, 07:27 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(11-04-2017 07:16 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Geeze Vera, stop persecuting me!! (Don't think you are...in fact I have a No Drama List on Facebook primarily due to the 'Christians' in my life who scream persecution if I so much as post a link to a source they disagree with and had one youth minister rip me a new one about how I'm not a real Christian because I'm: A. Catholic and B. Post things critical of his version of Evangelical Christianity.)
Don't make me bring out the comfy chair! Dodgy

[Image: history-tortured-torturing-forks-torture...14_low.jpg]

[Image: 15101518_1693223050989445_51186732996010...%3D%3D.2.c]

As long as I live I will never understand people seeing what is basically the same (crappy. Sorry, not sorry Tongue ) religion as two (or more) irreconcilably different ones. It's the same god, isn't it?! (People here, in Brazil, apparently also feel strongly about it (there've been a great increase in Evangelical Xtianity, no idea why). Boggles my atheist mind as much as it boggled my religious one Consider )

Aliza, "I shout but no one seems to hear", eh? Such an appropriately named song, too Drinking Beverage

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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11-04-2017, 07:36 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(11-04-2017 06:48 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  I agree that Muslim suicide bombers are acting on faith in Allah and the teachings of Islam. I would say neither faith is wrong but is simply an indication of their adherence of a belief they hold to be true.

And you do not see the problem?

Quote:“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
― Voltaire


(11-04-2017 06:48 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Perhaps it would be better to ask why is the object of one person's faith right and the ofject of another person's wrong? I would then say neither is wrong to them.

Then you can justify every religious based atrocity, from the Crusades to Jim Jones to Andrea Yates.

And I am obligated to point out that the believers themselves make the other believers wrong.

(11-04-2017 06:48 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  They are simply exercising their held belief in Islam and its teachings just as an atheist is exercising a belief that deities do not exist and having a disregard to any religious teachings and Christians are exercising their belief in Christianity.

No, atheism is not another religion or belief system.

Atheism is a response to one question: Do you believe in god?

There is no belief system. There is no atheist theology or dogma or catechism. There are no atheist scriptures or doctrines or gospels.

(11-04-2017 06:48 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Each of the three beliefs believe they are right and in a relative world each can be seen as to be right in their own eyes. There in lies the problem with relative truth as opposed to absolute truth.

You have no right to claim absolute truth when you present no evidence to support your claim. You dare to say religion has the absolute truth?

Which religion?
Why is islam false and christianity true?
Why not buddhism?
Why not Greek mythology?

(11-04-2017 06:48 PM)A_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  So as not to dodge the question of why is one is right and one wrong I would simply ask, Is it right to kill someone simply for what they believe. Curious as to how you might answer the right/wrong question?

No, you are dodging the question. I asked why one religion was right and all others wrong. Your question is an ethical-moral question.

Is it right to kill someone for what they believe?
It all depends on what they believe, doesn't it?

Is it acceptable to kill an infant if god tells you to?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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11-04-2017, 07:37 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(11-04-2017 07:27 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(11-04-2017 07:16 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Geeze Vera, stop persecuting me!! (Don't think you are...in fact I have a No Drama List on Facebook primarily due to the 'Christians' in my life who scream persecution if I so much as post a link to a source they disagree with and had one youth minister rip me a new one about how I'm not a real Christian because I'm: A. Catholic and B. Post things critical of his version of Evangelical Christianity.)
Don't make me bring out the comfy chair! Dodgy

[Image: history-tortured-torturing-forks-torture...14_low.jpg]

[Image: 15101518_1693223050989445_51186732996010...%3D%3D.2.c]

As long as I live I will never understand people seeing what is basically the same (crappy. Sorry, not sorry Tongue ) religion as two (or more) irreconcilably different ones. It's the same god, isn't it?! (People here, in Brazil, apparently also feel strongly about it (there've been a great increase in Evangelical Xtianity, no idea why). Boggles my atheist mind as much as it boggled my religious one Consider )

Aliza, "I shout but no one seems to hear", eh? Such an appropriately named song, too Drinking Beverage

I understand you being sorry, not sorry about it. The board is the Thinking Atheist after all. Wink Same God, same Holy Spirit, same Jesus Christ. Different doctrines to an extent, but yep. My main issue with Evangelicals is that they tend to be whiny and annoying, not "omg heresy!", actually none of it is "omg heresy!", it really does tend to be bad previous experiences, annoyingness at times, seeming to have issues with science at times in some sects of them, etc. And weird, though I know a lot of churches that send missionaries to go convert the 'idolaters' in South America, where that seems to be a code for Catholics, because in the words of one Evangelical I know, "Catholics ain't Christians. They aren't Bible Believin'."

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11-04-2017, 07:47 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
ShaiHulud, I do understand why you (or someone else) might have an issue (or a bazillion Rolleyes ) with a certain denomination. I still don't see how they can see it a separate religion. But maybe it's because I was a self-taught religionist who wanted everyone to just get along and get to heaven (okay, I might've been on the dumb side Blush ), plus, when I started having problems with the inherent injustice and randomness of "being saved" by having being born in the "right" religion by pure chance, I kinda went the way of "all religions basically worship the same - One - God". As you might've guessed, this didn't help much either and here I am, today, merrily trotting on my atheist way Yes

(Yeah, someone I met in Uruguay - an American girl - did tell me that Americans send the most missionaries to South America. Was flabbergasted. Like I might've said before, I've gotta be the world's naivest cynic Rolleyes )

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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11-04-2017, 07:52 PM
RE: Spin-off of Why I believe
(11-04-2017 07:47 PM)Vera Wrote:  ShaiHulud, I do understand why you (or someone else) might have an issue (or a bazillion Rolleyes ) with a certain denomination. I still don't see how they can see it a separate religion. But maybe it's because I was a self-taught religionist who wanted everyone to just get along and get to heaven (okay, I might've been on the dumb side Blush ), plus, when I started having problems with the inherent injustice and randomness of "being saved" by having being born in the "right" religion by pure chance, I kinda went the way of "all religions basically worship the same - One - God". As you might've guessed, this didn't help much either and here I am, today, merrily trotting on my atheist way Yes

(Yeah, someone I met in Uruguay - an American girl - did tell me that Americans send the most missionaries to South America. Was flabbergasted. Like I might've said before, I've gotta be the world's naivest cynic Rolleyes )

Oh I don't disagree with you; all denominational things aside, I don't consider them a separate religion (even if many of them fail to return the favor). But then again, I also don't disagree with thinking the idea of "being saved" through the randomness of being born the right "religion" point you made; back when I was a Baptist, I was told by Sunday School teachers, upon questioning it, that "His ways are beyond our ways" on that. Likewise, I find certain strains of Calvinism to be rather repugnant, given the teaching that God has predestined some for Heaven and most for Hell, and therefore our lives would have zero meaning and a lack of free will. And...yeah...you are an atheist now lol.

(Perhaps you are, but still, it shocked me as well, the first time I learned that. One of my exes had a best friend whose family made a number of trips to Brazil for the sole purpose of converting Catholics to their brand of Pentecostal Christianity.)

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