Spooky Action at a Distance and Bell's Theorem Revisited
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05-05-2013, 06:48 AM
Spooky Action at a Distance and Bell's Theorem Revisited
http://soi.blogspot.ca/2013/05/spooky-ac...bells.html

Discuss.
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05-05-2013, 04:31 PM
RE: Spooky Action at a Distance and Bell's Theorem Revisited
(05-05-2013 06:48 AM)zaybu Wrote:  Discuss.

No.

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05-05-2013, 05:16 PM
RE: Spooky Action at a Distance and Bell's Theorem Revisited
(05-05-2013 06:48 AM)zaybu Wrote:  Discuss.

You first! Big Grin

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06-05-2013, 04:26 PM
RE: Spooky Action at a Distance and Bell's Theorem Revisited
(05-05-2013 05:16 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  
(05-05-2013 06:48 AM)zaybu Wrote:  Discuss.

You first! Big Grin

OK.

It's quite ironic that there so much woowoo coming from pseudoscience, yet we have physicists with credentials publishing articles after articles claiming that QM proves nonlocalilty (a fancy way of saying "spooky action at a distance") which can only perpetuate the mystification of QM, and encouraging all that woowoo.
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07-05-2013, 05:09 AM
RE: Spooky Action at a Distance and Bell's Theorem Revisited
Do you think that spooky action at a distance (ie quantum entanglement) is not real, or do you think as Einstein did that the mechanism is simply unknown?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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07-05-2013, 05:32 AM
RE: Spooky Action at a Distance and Bell's Theorem Revisited
Why don't you argue with this guy?

Quote:However, entangled states are nothing "extraordinary" that would force us to revise the rules of relativity, e.g. the proof that there can't be any nonlocality that was presented at the beginning of this blog entry. Entanglement states aren't miraculous or special or supernatural. They're generic states in the Hilbert spaces. Almost all states in a tensor product Hilbert space are entangled. If you don't learn how to properly predict situations involving entangled states, then you misunderstand at least 99.99999 percent of quantum mechanics. There isn't any quantum mechanics without entangled states.

~from http://motls.blogspot.com/2012/03/most-o...ty-is.html

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07-05-2013, 12:15 PM
RE: Spooky Action at a Distance and Bell's Theorem Revisited
(07-05-2013 05:09 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Do you think that spooky action at a distance (ie quantum entanglement) is not real, or do you think as Einstein did that the mechanism is simply unknown?
Let's think, under which circumstances quantum entanglement might be real? What kind of universe?
Let's say that the universe is multi-dimensional and not all these dimensions treat space in the same way. There may be dimensions perpendicular to ours. If these dimensions are of primary importance, if this is where existence of all matter and energy is based, then our dimension would be simply a shadow play of the higher dimensions.

All that we see in existence is a very limited and temporary manifestation of objects in higher dimensions. Every object in existence is a manifestation of its own higher aspect or force. In this case, if we do something to an object that is a manifestation of relatively few natural forces (thus relatively simple composition), such as an elementary particle, we affect not just the object but also the essence in the higher dimension. I don't know how, by some method. If they get entangled at that level, where space is not treated in the same way, we see the effect in our world as well.

This is merely a hypothetical requirement for such a mechanism. I'd need to be a good physicist to pursue the idea deeper. But the basic premise is, that on some basic level all manifestation is one, all is connected, there is no obstacle of space and perhaps even time is treated in a somewhat different way. Another basic idea you need to remember is, that the higher dimensions are primary and all manifestation naturally progresses from there to here. Which raises the question what is it that we people do that can actually reverse the effect and make the lower affect the higher.
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07-05-2013, 12:22 PM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2013 12:26 PM by zaybu.)
RE: Spooky Action at a Distance and Bell's Theorem Revisited
(07-05-2013 05:09 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Do you think that spooky action at a distance (ie quantum entanglement) is not real, or do you think as Einstein did that the mechanism is simply unknown?

Einstein was the culprit for labelling entangled states with "spooky action at a distance". Secondly, there's no reason that entangled states are linked by some mysterious force. The results of experiments that are done don't justify that claim.
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07-05-2013, 12:24 PM
RE: Spooky Action at a Distance and Bell's Theorem Revisited
(07-05-2013 05:32 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Why don't you argue with this guy?

Quote:However, entangled states are nothing "extraordinary" that would force us to revise the rules of relativity, e.g. the proof that there can't be any nonlocality that was presented at the beginning of this blog entry. Entanglement states aren't miraculous or special or supernatural. They're generic states in the Hilbert spaces. Almost all states in a tensor product Hilbert space are entangled. If you don't learn how to properly predict situations involving entangled states, then you misunderstand at least 99.99999 percent of quantum mechanics. There isn't any quantum mechanics without entangled states.

~from http://motls.blogspot.com/2012/03/most-o...ty-is.html

There's nothing in there that I disagree.
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07-05-2013, 03:32 PM
RE: Spooky Action at a Distance and Bell's Theorem Revisited
(07-05-2013 05:32 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  ~from http://motls.blogspot.com/2012/03/most-o...ty-is.html

That is a great article. And this:

(05-05-2013 06:48 AM)zaybu Wrote:  http://soi.blogspot.ca/2013/05/spooky-ac...bells.html

isn't in contradiction. So,

(07-05-2013 12:24 PM)zaybu Wrote:  There's nothing in there that I disagree [with].

Now - unless I'm an idiot (always possible), here's what the first article says:
If we start by assuming (implicitly classical) reality, then Bell's results (that either reality or locality are violated) indicate that of course locality is violated. But it's actually the case that reality IS violated - as cantor's link explains in some detail. And, knowing that one premise is false, nothing can be concluded about the second, because our conclusion is that one premise OR the other be false.

That is to say - banging on about Bell's theorem as if there were some conclusion to be drawn about non/locality is just silly. And, like anything with the slightest whiff of the word 'quantum', a woo magnet.

Which is to say, millions of years of intuition don't prepare us for dealing with a relativistic quantum universe.
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