Stagnation in growth of non-religious :(
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18-08-2016, 09:25 AM
RE: Stagnation in growth of non-religious :(
(18-08-2016 09:09 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I know there's plenty of nones that are still general Christians or of other religions, like that rapping I love Jesus but hate religion types.

Though equating concepts of God like concepts in a lessened to portion to gods is just as bad a conflating the argument in the way to support a collective as larger than it is.

I doubt you know what God like concepts are being equated, because you and I likely have different understandings of what the concept of God, or God like concepts mean. But this is all besides the point I made. Which was debunking the suggestion by others that attempted to paint the rise of nones as a result of educational and economic gains, as some sort of long march of rational and skeptical thinking.

The real shift is more akin to one trading in the ridiculous beliefs or organized religion, for unorganized religious beliefs of one's own making, no less ridiculous, though perhaps more benign. Sort of like one trading in a belief in demons, for a belief in cute friendly leprechauns.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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18-08-2016, 10:44 AM
RE: Stagnation in growth of non-religious :(
(18-08-2016 09:25 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-08-2016 09:09 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I know there's plenty of nones that are still general Christians or of other religions, like that rapping I love Jesus but hate religion types.

Though equating concepts of God like concepts in a lessened to portion to gods is just as bad a conflating the argument in the way to support a collective as larger than it is.

I doubt you know what God like concepts are being equated, because you and I likely have different understandings of what the concept of God, or God like concepts mean. But this is all besides the point I made. Which was debunking the suggestion by others that attempted to paint the rise of nones as a result of educational and economic gains, as some sort of long march of rational and skeptical thinking.

The real shift is more akin to one trading in the ridiculous beliefs or organized religion, for unorganized religious beliefs of one's own making, no less ridiculous, though perhaps more benign. Sort of like one trading in a belief in demons, for a belief in cute friendly leprechauns.

So you don't equate leaving more corrupt and flawed organized religion as a benefit of rational and skeptical thinking over accepting tradition for tradition sake? What would you arise less people continuing in those too then? Even if your trading in ridiculous beliefs for benign ones is true, how isn't that rationality and skepticism???

God concepts have been thought out for thousands of years, there's little ever described newly in what is classical and religious connotations. Just because some folks may sat god is love doesn't equate the shift of what concepts are deities are known as.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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18-08-2016, 11:02 AM
RE: Stagnation in growth of non-religious :(
(18-08-2016 09:25 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But this is all besides the point I made. Which was debunking the suggestion by others that attempted to paint the rise of nones as a result of educational and economic gains, as some sort of long march of rational and skeptical thinking.

Nope. That is a strawman. No-one stated this. I actually stated that well educated, economically successful people have a much lower fertility rate......as people become better educated and more prosperous birth rates drop. Well educated, economically successful people also also tend to be non-religious.

I made no claims as to rationality or skeptical thinking.

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18-08-2016, 11:21 AM
RE: Stagnation in growth of non-religious :(
(18-08-2016 11:02 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  
(18-08-2016 09:25 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But this is all besides the point I made. Which was debunking the suggestion by others that attempted to paint the rise of nones as a result of educational and economic gains, as some sort of long march of rational and skeptical thinking.

Nope. That is a strawman. No-one stated this. I actually stated that well educated, economically successful people have a much lower fertility rate......as people become better educated and more prosperous birth rates drop. Well educated, economically successful people also also tend to be non-religious.

I made no claims as to rationality or skeptical thinking.

There isn't any real connection between being non-religious and being educated or economically successful.

There is when it comes to non-religious people who identify as agnostic and atheists, the bulk of the non-religious population do not identify as atheists or agnostics, and in regards to them there is no connection between education and economic success. Their level of education is on par with the general population, as well as the religious population.

You're making the mistake of conflating the nones with atheists/agnostics, when in fact atheists/and agnostics are only a portion of the nones as a whole, and not even the majority.

So the suggestion that education is a driver for the nones, is empirically false.

In fact that data is more supportive of the idea that folks who are less inclined to be part of a community, who favor individualism are inlined to be non-religious. Factors like this drive the growth of nones more so than education, or economic prosperity.

And I would assume that growth in education corresponds to a growth in skeptical and rational thinking, you disagree?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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18-08-2016, 12:32 PM
RE: Stagnation in growth of non-religious :(
(08-08-2016 06:43 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  Wow it's gone up to 51%? I know it sucks it's not growing but that's over half the population! I wish that was the case here in the States. I think we are seeing growth especially as newer generations are being taken into account but I agree with Stevil, perhaps in influx of Muslim immigrants are skewing the numbers.

When I read what you have to put up with in the USA it makes me very grateful to be here in the UK also the Anglican Church has mounted a vigorous campaign to bring the unwashed into the arms of jebus which is why things have stagnated.
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18-08-2016, 12:53 PM
RE: Stagnation in growth of non-religious :(
(18-08-2016 11:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-08-2016 11:02 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  Nope. That is a strawman. No-one stated this. I actually stated that well educated, economically successful people have a much lower fertility rate......as people become better educated and more prosperous birth rates drop. Well educated, economically successful people also also tend to be non-religious.

I made no claims as to rationality or skeptical thinking.

There isn't any real connection between being non-religious and being educated or economically successful.

There is when it comes to non-religious people who identify as agnostic and atheists, the bulk of the non-religious population do not identify as atheists or agnostics, and in regards to them there is no connection between education and economic success. Their level of education is on par with the general population, as well as the religious population.

You're making the mistake of conflating the nones with atheists/agnostics, when in fact atheists/and agnostics are only a portion of the nones as a whole, and not even the majority.

So the suggestion that education is a driver for the nones, is empirically false.

In fact that data is more supportive of the idea that folks who are less inclined to be part of a community, who favor individualism are inlined to be non-religious. Factors like this drive the growth of nones more so than education, or economic prosperity.

And I would assume that growth in education corresponds to a growth in skeptical and rational thinking, you disagree?

Empirically false? I think not.

[url] http://www.gallup.com/poll/142727/religi...tions.aspx[/url]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/do-countrie...-1.1310451

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_education

The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike
Excreta Tauri Sapientam Fulgeat (The excrement of the bull causes wisdom to flee)
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18-08-2016, 02:09 PM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2016 02:15 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Stagnation in growth of non-religious :(
(18-08-2016 12:53 PM)Silly Deity Wrote:  
(18-08-2016 11:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  There isn't any real connection between being non-religious and being educated or economically successful.

There is when it comes to non-religious people who identify as agnostic and atheists, the bulk of the non-religious population do not identify as atheists or agnostics, and in regards to them there is no connection between education and economic success. Their level of education is on par with the general population, as well as the religious population.

You're making the mistake of conflating the nones with atheists/agnostics, when in fact atheists/and agnostics are only a portion of the nones as a whole, and not even the majority.

So the suggestion that education is a driver for the nones, is empirically false.

In fact that data is more supportive of the idea that folks who are less inclined to be part of a community, who favor individualism are inlined to be non-religious. Factors like this drive the growth of nones more so than education, or economic prosperity.

And I would assume that growth in education corresponds to a growth in skeptical and rational thinking, you disagree?

Empirically false? I think not.

[url] http://www.gallup.com/poll/142727/religi...tions.aspx[/url]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/do-countrie...-1.1310451

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_education

Education levels, and income, are what you suggested are the cause here or at least the significant contributor.

If they were the cause, or even a significant contributor to the rise of nones, than we would expect to see discrepancies in education levels of nones and religious. While discripincies exist among atheists/agnostic who make up less than a 3rd of nones in general, this is not true for the bulk of the non-religious.

Education level on non self-identiying atheist/agnostic nones vs religiously affiliated:

Non-religious: HS or Less: 45%, the religiously affiliated is 43%, Some college is 29% vs 28%, College grad is: 16% for both, for post grad is 10=100 VS 13=100.

Or in other words there no is relationship between the Nones (at least the vast majority 70% of nones who don't identify as atheists/agnostics and the religiously affiliated when it comes to education. In fact the Pew survey shows no disciplines among the nothing in particular and the religious affiliated when it comes income as well.

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/10/09/nones...ographics/

You appeal to comparisons between developed and undeveloped countries, as a counter arguments requires some shitty statical interpretation on your part. And would requires a conflation of cause and correlation.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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