Poll: Do you agree with the Stand Your Ground Laws
Yes. They are good self-defense laws
No. They are unnecessary and often abused and misused
Unsure. (Comment)
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Stand your ground laws
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18-07-2013, 09:52 AM
Stand your ground laws
This study by Cheng Cheng and Mark Hoekstra from Texas A&M found that an extra 600 deaths a year could be attributed to the Stand Your Ground Laws. We probably don't need to recap the Zimmerman case to see one example of how the law can be used to justify shooting someone, even if the altercation may have been initiated by the person who pulled the trigger. But maybe this story is news to you. A Florida woman was trying to argue that the Stand Your Ground Law justified her firing a warning shot into the air to try and prevent her estranged husband from attacking her. Because she didn't actually shoot him, it was ruled that she must not have been in any real danger and therefore, must have been the aggressor. They sentenced her to 20 years.

Not only does that law lead to more deaths, it can and is misused to prevent conviction. While also being used to convict someone because they had the presence of mind NOT to take a life.

The Stand Your Ground Laws are morally reprehensible. They allow you to preemptively attack someone under the guise of feeling "threatened." Rubbish I say.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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18-07-2013, 10:48 AM
RE: Stand your ground laws
That doesn't sound right. I have a feeling that conviction will be thrown out in appeals or reduced to a lesser charge like unlawful discharge of a firearm within city limits or reckless endangerment, which carries a short stint in the county jail and a stiff fine.

Still, in my own training with firearms, I have been explicitly warned not to fire warning shots. In the eyes of the law pointing a gun at someone and shooting at them, even if you are attempting to warn them and not hurt them counts as deadly force. So technically you could argue attempted murder, though it's pretty flimsy grounds to stand on.

I think it will get thrown out on appeals.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

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18-07-2013, 10:52 AM
RE: Stand your ground laws
Even if it gets thrown out, the conviction shows how much BS it is. It also demonstrates that someone who used a gun for self defense (in both cases) either clearly didn't know what they were doing or shouldn't have had it for stalking people around their neighborhood.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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18-07-2013, 11:13 AM
RE: Stand your ground laws
First of all Zimmerman never invoked the stand your ground defense.

Second, since I voted unsure, I'll comply with your request and provide comment. Disclaimer: I am no lawyer and I really have limited knowledge on the subject. I also don't live in a state with a castle/SYG law. Also important to note is that I do not own a firearm.

I don't like the vigilante/militia mentality that could manifest itself once you legislate the right of someone to perhaps be more more aggressive than the situation warrants. That may have happened with GZ. I skimmed through that study and have the following observations:
1- the states that enacted the laws up through 2007 all had homicide rates above the control group so we are talking about an environment where people were being killed in greater frequency than other places
2- in most there was a uptick immediately and then a decline.
3- I don't know how the study controlled for other factors impacting homicide rate such as other laws, state economic conditions, etc
4- How did the study evaluate instances where the "victim" didn't kill the aggressor?

Something we'll never know in an instance where an intruder is killed whether that really did prevent the home's occupants from rape or save their lives. So a "benefit" can never really be evaluated since it is a what if scenario. If someone breaks into my house, I really don't know if they just simply want to rob or have other intentions. Do I want to take that risk with my family? No. I will do what I need to in order to make sure that my family is secure and unharmed. I have no idea what I would do in that scenario especially since I don't have a gun but I probably would take advantage of anything at hand which may or may not be lethal and I would appreciate the legal protection of being able to protect my "castle".

On the other hand, I don't like the idea of an armed neighborhood watch. A neighborhood watch is not a militia it should simply be a visible deterrent to potential law breakers that they will be seen and police will be called. I, however, do not live in an area with high crime and if I did I may feel much differently.

Enough rambling.
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18-07-2013, 11:15 AM
RE: Stand your ground laws
It would depend on how the law was written.

I do not like the idea of civilians running around playing cop. Wandering around and looking to prolong an encounter that ends in deadly force is not self defense.

If your life is genuinely endangered then you have to right to defend it.

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
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18-07-2013, 11:27 AM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 10:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Even if it gets thrown out, the conviction shows how much BS it is. It also demonstrates that someone who used a gun for self defense (in both cases) either clearly didn't know what they were doing or shouldn't have had it for stalking people around their neighborhood.

Again with the you're-too stupid-and-incompetent-to-protect-yourself routine.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
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18-07-2013, 11:30 AM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 11:27 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 10:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Even if it gets thrown out, the conviction shows how much BS it is. It also demonstrates that someone who used a gun for self defense (in both cases) either clearly didn't know what they were doing or shouldn't have had it for stalking people around their neighborhood.

Again with the you're-too stupid-and-incompetent-to-protect-yourself routine.

I'm sorry reality offends you but statistics show that you are something like 300% more likely to harm yourself or a family member than an intruder if you own a gun. Those are just the facts, so yeah most people are too incompetent/stupid to safely own a weapon.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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18-07-2013, 11:32 AM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 11:27 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 10:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Even if it gets thrown out, the conviction shows how much BS it is. It also demonstrates that someone who used a gun for self defense (in both cases) either clearly didn't know what they were doing or shouldn't have had it for stalking people around their neighborhood.

Again with the you're-too stupid-and-incompetent-to-protect-yourself routine.

When did I say that exactly? As a matter of fact, that was the point you made as to the woman's misuse of the gun for giving off a warning shot.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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18-07-2013, 11:43 AM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 11:30 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 11:27 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Again with the you're-too stupid-and-incompetent-to-protect-yourself routine.

I'm sorry reality offends you but statistics show that you are something like 300% more likely to harm yourself or a family member than an intruder if you own a gun. Those are just the facts, so yeah most people are too incompetent/stupid to safely own a weapon.

I don't care. That's not a reason to write laws banning guns just as its not society's or the Ford Motor Company's problem when some idiot downs 10 shots of whiskey, then drives his Mustang into a light pole. Freedom requires responsibility - and consequence for those who are careless with it. We should not be a nation of im imbiciles warded by a nanny state.

The problem is I think a lot of these people did know better than what they did, then feign ignorance when they get into trouble. Ignorantia juris non excusant, asshole. And you get ten years in a crossbar apartment to learn from it.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
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18-07-2013, 11:44 AM
RE: Stand your ground laws
WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BANNING GUNS?!!!!!!!!!!! Where are you getting this from?

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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