Poll: Do you agree with the Stand Your Ground Laws
Yes. They are good self-defense laws
No. They are unnecessary and often abused and misused
Unsure. (Comment)
[Show Results]
 
Stand your ground laws
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
18-07-2013, 04:36 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  Not a blind assumption, a statistical one.

But Chas, we aren't supposed to apply statistics to these types of things. Drinking Beverage

[Image: Untitled-2.png?_subject_uid=322943157&am...Y7Dzq4lJog]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-07-2013, 04:43 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 04:36 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  Not a blind assumption, a statistical one.

But Chas, we aren't supposed to apply statistics to these types of things. Drinking Beverage

Yes, we are. The attacker is a random member of a sample space. I have no information on the particular attacker.

I am not. I have full information on me.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-07-2013, 05:23 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:50 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:32 PM)Dom Wrote:  Well, I am not willing to end up on the smaller side of the statistics. You break into my home, you better pray the dog gets you before I do. And since Drago is a trained police dog, it is pretty sure that he will.

Then why do you drive a car? Why do you walk in the streets? Why do you climb up and down stairs? Why do you even breathe? I mean, the fatalities included in these activities are so marginally small, but they are more likely than your dying from a home intruder.

Because the above are not really preventable - and I am a good driver and my car is in good maintenance always. But yeah, a meteor could hit me as I am driving along, too. That's not good reasoning at all. Breathing? Hello?

(18-07-2013 02:32 PM)Dom Wrote:  BTW, when I was younger I didn't own a gun and felt the same way you do. I've changed my mind.

Quote:I don't care if you changed your mind. I don't care if you owned a gun then or now. I am simply telling you that, in all probability, you will be killing a fleeing thief, not a killer.

The dog won't kill him, it won't even touch a hair on him if he stands still when caught.

He won't flee, the dog will stop him, so he isn't getting shot while fleeing. Why would anyone shoot a fleeing man in the back? Besides, that is illegal.

If he attacks and I shoot him, he may die or he may not.

The situation is his choice, not mine. He chose to break in, he can reasonably expect that all the homes in this area contain people with guns. If he gets shot, it will be his decisions that had that result, not mine. My decision was to sleep through the night.

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dom's post
18-07-2013, 05:53 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 05:23 PM)Dom Wrote:  The situation is his choice, not mine. He chose to break in, he can reasonably expect that all the homes in this area contain people with guns. If he gets shot, it will be his decisions that had that result, not mine. My decision was to sleep through the night.

And you know what? The vast majority do consider that. That is why you won't find yourself in that situation. They will rob you when you aren't there for prolonged period of time. No crazed stranger is going to burst into your home and attack you. The chances of that are astronomically low. As I said before, if you consider those chances as a realistic possibility, you had best well sever all connections with your loved-ones. Comparatively, you are far more likely to be killed by a loved-one or friend. And you will have your guard down.

The Stand Your Ground Law only enables justifiable homicide based on "I felt threatened". Well, I feel threatened by quite a few things. My baseless suspicions should not give me free range to start shooting people. Stand Your Ground is not about self-defense, it is about justifying paranoia; which seems to be common among quite a few gun owners (not directing that at you).

[Image: Untitled-2.png?_subject_uid=322943157&am...Y7Dzq4lJog]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-07-2013, 05:55 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 04:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  I am not. I have full information on me.

You have no idea how you will react if this event even occurs. The chances are, however, that you will not have the time to react.

[Image: Untitled-2.png?_subject_uid=322943157&am...Y7Dzq4lJog]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-07-2013, 07:24 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 05:53 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 05:23 PM)Dom Wrote:  The situation is his choice, not mine. He chose to break in, he can reasonably expect that all the homes in this area contain people with guns. If he gets shot, it will be his decisions that had that result, not mine. My decision was to sleep through the night.

And you know what? The vast majority do consider that. That is why you won't find yourself in that situation. They will rob you when you aren't there for prolonged period of time. No crazed stranger is going to burst into your home and attack you. The chances of that are astronomically low. As I said before, if you consider those chances as a realistic possibility, you had best well sever all connections with your loved-ones. Comparatively, you are far more likely to be killed by a loved-one or friend. And you will have your guard down.

The Stand Your Ground Law only enables justifiable homicide based on "I felt threatened". Well, I feel threatened by quite a few things. My baseless suspicions should not give me free range to start shooting people. Stand Your Ground is not about self-defense, it is about justifying paranoia; which seems to be common among quite a few gun owners (not directing that at you).

This is only one reason I own a gun. There are bears, cougars (mountain lions), coyotes and all kinds of creatures out here. I ran into two bears when I stepped out into my garden one time. They didn't attack, I didn't shoot. But it felt damn good to have the gun. If you get in trouble of some sort out here, you shoot three times in the air and the neighbors come to help. This is not your civilized city condo, I live in the country. Things are different here. Owning a gun has nothing to do with paranoia, it's common sense here. Just as it's common sense to disable an intruder.

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-07-2013, 08:31 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 07:24 PM)Dom Wrote:  This is only one reason I own a gun. There are bears, cougars (mountain lions), coyotes and all kinds of creatures out here. I ran into two bears when I stepped out into my garden one time. They didn't attack, I didn't shoot. But it felt damn good to have the gun. If you get in trouble of some sort out here, you shoot three times in the air and the neighbors come to help. This is not your civilized city condo, I live in the country. Things are different here. Owning a gun has nothing to do with paranoia, it's common sense here. Just as it's common sense to disable an intruder.

Great! And every western nation that has banned the widespread usage of firearms allows individuals with such frequent threats to own one. This is one of the few reasonable explanations I can see for possessing a firearm.

As for possessing a firearm with the intent to defend one's self from another gun owner, that truly is paranoia. It is common sense to defend one's self, yes, but as statistics have shown it is:
A) Unlikely.
B) Not necessary to possess a firearm.
C) With a firearm, frequently futile.

And your defending yourself from wild animals does not require the Stand Your Ground laws.

[Image: Untitled-2.png?_subject_uid=322943157&am...Y7Dzq4lJog]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-07-2013, 08:52 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 08:31 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 07:24 PM)Dom Wrote:  This is only one reason I own a gun. There are bears, cougars (mountain lions), coyotes and all kinds of creatures out here. I ran into two bears when I stepped out into my garden one time. They didn't attack, I didn't shoot. But it felt damn good to have the gun. If you get in trouble of some sort out here, you shoot three times in the air and the neighbors come to help. This is not your civilized city condo, I live in the country. Things are different here. Owning a gun has nothing to do with paranoia, it's common sense here. Just as it's common sense to disable an intruder.

Great! And every western nation that has banned the widespread usage of firearms allows individuals with such frequent threats to own one. This is one of the few reasonable explanations I can see for possessing a firearm.

As for possessing a firearm with the intent to defend one's self from another gun owner, that truly is paranoia. It is common sense to defend one's self, yes, but as statistics have shown it is:
A) Unlikely.
B) Not necessary to possess a firearm.
C) With a firearm, frequently futile.

And your defending yourself from wild animals does not require the Stand Your Ground laws.

No, but a half hour to an hour response time from the police does. Which is why neighbors respond to shots fired in the air. There aren't any burglaries or home invasions here for a good reason. No local would dream of it.

There are lots of reasons to own a gun. When I was young and living in the city, I didn't see the necessity either. People everywhere, cops everywhere, no wild animals. But by now I even believe in having the citizens of a country armed. Keeps the government in check. If all the citizens in Germany had been armed under Hitler, history would have turned out very different.

But we derailed the thread. This was about Zimmerman, which is a totally different thing from shooting an intruder.

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-07-2013, 09:09 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
I don't know enough about the laws to make a desicion. I was hoping that the OP would give some clarification and explanation, but instead I only found appeals to emotion. I don't feel like drudging through 10 pages, can someone break these laws down for me as unbiasedly as possible?

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-07-2013, 09:09 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 08:52 PM)Dom Wrote:  No, but a half hour to an hour response time from the police does. Which is why neighbors respond to shots fired in the air. There aren't any burglaries or home invasions here for a good reason. No local would dream of it.

Dom, I live in a nation where firearms are strictly regulated and rare to find. Burglaries are just as rare here as they are in the U.S, differences in population compensated.

(18-07-2013 08:52 PM)Dom Wrote:  There are lots of reasons to own a gun. When I was young and living in the city, I didn't see the necessity either. People everywhere, cops everywhere, no wild animals. But by now I even believe in having the citizens of a country armed. Keeps the government in check. If all the citizens in Germany had been armed under Hitler, history would have turned out very different.

Being concerned about the government's martial power is ridiculous. Let's assume that the government does somehow hold onto its military long enough to order defensive operations against civilians, what the hell do you think you are going to do? Shoot down a UAV or drone with your handgun? Blow up a tank with your rifle? Blast away an infantry regiment with your shotgun? Destroy U.S fleets with your sniper rifles?

If the military did not participate in the rebellion, you'd be fucked anyway. If the military did participate, you'd already have free range access to military-grade weapons.

(18-07-2013 08:52 PM)Dom Wrote:  But we derailed the thread. This was about Zimmerman, which is a totally different thing from shooting an intruder.

Which is why I have been trying to connect the Stand Your Ground law in each one of your scenarios.

[Image: Untitled-2.png?_subject_uid=322943157&am...Y7Dzq4lJog]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: