Poll: Do you agree with the Stand Your Ground Laws
Yes. They are good self-defense laws
No. They are unnecessary and often abused and misused
Unsure. (Comment)
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Stand your ground laws
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23-07-2013, 05:00 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(23-07-2013 04:39 PM)joshChase Wrote:  
(23-07-2013 04:30 PM)Jakel Wrote:  Agreed. But sometimes in life it's better to just let it go, and be the better person, and try to actively avoid violence. Self-defense should cover situations (I guess the self-defense laws vary from place to place) where this is not an option. SYG laws still sounds to me like it an excuse to legitimately hurt other persons, in situations where it could be avoided.

The concept of SYG doesn't apply only to volatile situations. If you were at a parade and someone said "Hey move that is my spot" you don't need to move. Acting in a pacifying manner to keep the peace isn't a bad thing but legally mandating it is a different story.

If the SYG laws was only used to solve matters regarding parades it would be differentSmile My problem is you can use te laws to kill people while it could be avoided.
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23-07-2013, 05:07 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(23-07-2013 05:00 PM)Jakel Wrote:  
(23-07-2013 04:39 PM)joshChase Wrote:  The concept of SYG doesn't apply only to volatile situations. If you were at a parade and someone said "Hey move that is my spot" you don't need to move. Acting in a pacifying manner to keep the peace isn't a bad thing but legally mandating it is a different story.

If the SYG laws was only used to solve matters regarding parades it would be differentSmile My problem is you can use te laws to kill people while it could be avoided.

Perhaps I am reading a bit into your comments but I think it rare that any normal person wants to kill another. People carry a weapons but I suspect that the vast majority really, really don't ever want to use it. At the same time they also don't ever want to need it and not have it.
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23-07-2013, 05:19 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(23-07-2013 04:44 PM)joshChase Wrote:  
(23-07-2013 04:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  Alan is the aggressor. He made a mistaken judgement in throwing that punch.

If he did so in response to Joe being physically in his face, then Joe has committed an assault; he is the aggressor and is not protected by the statute.

The statute does not absolve people of responsibility. It protects moral and ethical behavior.

And even then there are shades of gray. If Alan punched him but made no further attack then Joe would not be justified in shooting Alan. Pressing charges for assault, sure, but not shooting him because a single punch isn't generally considered to be grave bodily harm. If, however, Alan were to punch Joe, knock him to the ground, and keep punching him and smashing Joe's head into the ground then Joe would be justified in believing that Alan had intention of doing him grave harm and Joe would be justified in shooting Alan.

You're welcome to continue spinning scenarios.

A prosecutor will look at the evidence and decide whether charges will be brought; if they are, a judge/jury will adjudicate.

The legislation, as written, is clear. Force can be met with force, and it is allowable to use deadly force appropriately. Laws don't specify every possible scenario. They can't.

Statutes are written to be interpreted by a reasonable person.

Wikipedia Wrote:The reasonable person (historically reasonable man) is one of many tools for explaining the law to a jury. The "reasonable person" is an emergent concept of common law. While there is (loose) consensus in black letter law, there is no universally accepted, technical definition. As a legal fiction, the "reasonable person" is not an average person or a typical person. Instead, the "reasonable person" is a composite of a relevant community's judgment as to how a typical member of said community should behave in situations that might pose a threat of harm (through action or inaction) to the public.

The standard also holds that each person owes a duty to behave as a reasonable person would under the same or similar circumstances. While the specific circumstances of each case will require varying kinds of conduct and degrees of care, the reasonable person standard undergoes no variation itself.

The "reasonable person" construct can be found applied in many areas of the law. The standard performs a crucial role in determining negligence in both criminal law—that is, criminal negligence—and tort law.

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23-07-2013, 06:13 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(23-07-2013 05:07 PM)joshChase Wrote:  
(23-07-2013 05:00 PM)Jakel Wrote:  If the SYG laws was only used to solve matters regarding parades it would be differentSmile My problem is you can use te laws to kill people while it could be avoided.

Perhaps I am reading a bit into your comments but I think it rare that any normal person wants to kill another. People carry a weapons but I suspect that the vast majority really, really don't ever want to use it. At the same time they also don't ever want to need it and not have it.

I think it boils down to a difference in mentality/laws.

In Denmark guns/knifes are illiegal to carry and we trust that people follow those rules. In general this works pretty well and therefore we don't feel like we need to carry weapons to defend ourselves in case we should be attacked. Hell, even the times where I have been verbally assaulted by strangers trying to start a fight, I can't really remember being scared of the possibility they might be carrying a weapon.

Seems like it's the other way around in the states. You have the right to carry a weapon and a right to defend yourself. Most people I have met thinks that since you have such rights you should utilize them at all costs and they seem more concerned about their rights to hurt somebody, than try to avoid violence.

People in generel might not want to hurt each other, but when everybody carry weapons, shit gets serious a lot fasterSmile People with weapons insisting on standing their ground exercing their rights not to comprise in any way does not make it better.
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23-07-2013, 06:41 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(23-07-2013 06:13 PM)Jakel Wrote:  I think it boils down to a difference in mentality/laws.

In Denmark guns/knifes are illiegal to carry and we trust that people follow those rules. In general this works pretty well and therefore we don't feel like we need to carry weapons to defend ourselves in case we should be attacked. Hell, even the times where I have been verbally assaulted by strangers trying to start a fight, I can't really remember being scared of the possibility they might be carrying a weapon.

Seems like it's the other way around in the states. You have the right to carry a weapon and a right to defend yourself. Most people I have met thinks that since you have such rights you should utilize them at all costs and they seem more concerned about their rights to hurt somebody, than try to avoid violence.

People in generel might not want to hurt each other, but when everybody carry weapons, shit gets serious a lot fasterSmile People with weapons insisting on standing their ground exercing their rights not to comprise in any way does not make it better.

That is a major difference - in Denmark weapons ownership was not a major hallmark of the foundation of the county. Given how the US came to be the right to bear arms is written into our Bill of Rights because it was important to the founders that the people always be able to defend themselves against the government should the need arise. It has never been about innate aggression but about ensuring the freedom of the people. SYG is not about encouraging aggression but ensuring the rights of the people are not infringed.
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24-07-2013, 12:34 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(23-07-2013 06:41 PM)joshChase Wrote:  
(23-07-2013 06:13 PM)Jakel Wrote:  I think it boils down to a difference in mentality/laws.

In Denmark guns/knifes are illiegal to carry and we trust that people follow those rules. In general this works pretty well and therefore we don't feel like we need to carry weapons to defend ourselves in case we should be attacked. Hell, even the times where I have been verbally assaulted by strangers trying to start a fight, I can't really remember being scared of the possibility they might be carrying a weapon.

Seems like it's the other way around in the states. You have the right to carry a weapon and a right to defend yourself. Most people I have met thinks that since you have such rights you should utilize them at all costs and they seem more concerned about their rights to hurt somebody, than try to avoid violence.

People in generel might not want to hurt each other, but when everybody carry weapons, shit gets serious a lot fasterSmile People with weapons insisting on standing their ground exercing their rights not to comprise in any way does not make it better.

SYG is not about encouraging aggression but ensuring the rights of the people are not infringed.

SYG is about Bull Shit for the most part. This SYG controversy has convinced a lot of gun owners that they somehow have no moral duty to retreat just because some law says they don't have to. As a result, these gun-toting ass-clowns either stay around a bad situation too long, or willingly walk straight into one. In both cases, people needlessly get hurt.

And ya' know what's really funny? SYG is almost always a bad tactical decision if one is really trying to defend themselves. When some arse-clown decides to stand-his-ground against a perceived bad guy, then he's already gifted the bad guy the tactical advantages of timing and placement - and maybe mode of attack. However, when someone retreats, they can go to a new location that's better suited for defense - and they get the advantage of time in which to make better decisions.

These hard-core, SYG arse-clowns are fools who know nothing about self defense except that which will contribute to getting them hurt. They moth such shit as "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" and such shit with little knowledge that the next 12 they'll meet after the trial are the 12 maniacs in a shower who will fuck them up the ass! As they bend over and get ass pounded, they can than good 'ole Colonel Jeff Cooper for the ass raping.

Seriously, you pull the trigger in self defense - even if it's 100% justified - your life changes forever. Not only will you have to deal with the great expense of lawyers and court appearances - you'll also have to worry about "revenge" if the arsehole ya' killed has arsehole relatives or friends. Which...is somethiong a guy named Greyston Garcia didn't take into consideration when he chased down a car thief and knifed him to death. Greystone was found dead 3 months later that was blamed on him getting caught in a gang-shooting crossfire. Police said it was bad luck on Greystons part - he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I say Bullshit...it was too much of a coincidence!

So...people can talk about how great SYG is and how it preserves their rights - the rights to get anal-raped and shot dead - but I don't buy it.
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24-07-2013, 12:41 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(24-07-2013 12:34 PM)Julius Wrote:  
(23-07-2013 06:41 PM)joshChase Wrote:  SYG is not about encouraging aggression but ensuring the rights of the people are not infringed.

SYG is about Bull Shit for the most part. This SYG controversy has convinced a lot of gun owners that they somehow have no moral duty to retreat just because some law says they don't have to. As a result, these gun-toting ass-clowns either stay around a bad situation too long, or willingly walk straight into one. In both cases, people needlessly get hurt.

And ya' know what's really funny? SYG is almost always a bad tactical decision if one is really trying to defend themselves. When some arse-clown decides to stand-his-ground against a perceived bad guy, then he's already gifted the bad guy the tactical advantages of timing and placement - and maybe mode of attack. However, when someone retreats, they can go to a new location that's better suited for defense - and they get the advantage of time in which to make better decisions.

These hard-core, SYG arse-clowns are fools who know nothing about self defense except that which will contribute to getting them hurt. They moth such shit as "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" and such shit with little knowledge that the next 12 they'll meet after the trial are the 12 maniacs in a shower who will fuck them up the ass! As they bend over and get ass pounded, they can than good 'ole Colonel Jeff Cooper for the ass raping.

Seriously, you pull the trigger in self defense - even if it's 100% justified - your life changes forever. Not only will you have to deal with the great expense of lawyers and court appearances - you'll also have to worry about "revenge" if the arsehole ya' killed has arsehole relatives or friends. Which...is somethiong a guy named Greyston Garcia didn't take into consideration when he chased down a car thief and knifed him to death. Greystone was found dead 3 months later that was blamed on him getting caught in a gang-shooting crossfire. Police said it was bad luck on Greystons part - he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I say Bullshit...it was too much of a coincidence!

So...people can talk about how great SYG is and how it preserves their rights - the rights to get anal-raped and shot dead - but I don't buy it.

Stand your ground laws are not about tactical decisions. They are about rights and liability.
We can talk more about it when you calm the fuck down.Drinking Beverage

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24-07-2013, 10:53 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(24-07-2013 12:41 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-07-2013 12:34 PM)Julius Wrote:  SYG is about Bull Shit for the most part. This SYG controversy has convinced a lot of gun owners that they somehow have no moral duty to retreat just because some law says they don't have to. As a result, these gun-toting ass-clowns either stay around a bad situation too long, or willingly walk straight into one. In both cases, people needlessly get hurt.

And ya' know what's really funny? SYG is almost always a bad tactical decision if one is really trying to defend themselves. When some arse-clown decides to stand-his-ground against a perceived bad guy, then he's already gifted the bad guy the tactical advantages of timing and placement - and maybe mode of attack. However, when someone retreats, they can go to a new location that's better suited for defense - and they get the advantage of time in which to make better decisions.

These hard-core, SYG arse-clowns are fools who know nothing about self defense except that which will contribute to getting them hurt. They moth such shit as "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" and such shit with little knowledge that the next 12 they'll meet after the trial are the 12 maniacs in a shower who will fuck them up the ass! As they bend over and get ass pounded, they can than good 'ole Colonel Jeff Cooper for the ass raping.

Seriously, you pull the trigger in self defense - even if it's 100% justified - your life changes forever. Not only will you have to deal with the great expense of lawyers and court appearances - you'll also have to worry about "revenge" if the arsehole ya' killed has arsehole relatives or friends. Which...is somethiong a guy named Greyston Garcia didn't take into consideration when he chased down a car thief and knifed him to death. Greystone was found dead 3 months later that was blamed on him getting caught in a gang-shooting crossfire. Police said it was bad luck on Greystons part - he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I say Bullshit...it was too much of a coincidence!

So...people can talk about how great SYG is and how it preserves their rights - the rights to get anal-raped and shot dead - but I don't buy it.

Stand your ground laws are not about tactical decisions. They are about rights and liability.
We can talk more about it when you calm the fuck down.Drinking Beverage


I know exactly what SYG laws are all about and I also know how many douchebags use them as an excuse to commit violence in the name of preserving their precious-fucking "Rights". Personally, I like the SYG laws, but I also realize that with these laws have a lot of baggage associated with them - violent douchebag baggage. Yep...guys preachin' SYG and just looking for an excuse to unload on some "Bad Guy" in order to assauge their freakin' fragile egos.

Too many guys are walking around carrying guns and fragile egos - and just waiting for the excuse to "go off" on some stupid Mo' Fo'....instead of trying to find a peaceful way out. I hate it - it makes all us gun owner look bad. It sucks.
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25-07-2013, 01:14 AM
RE: Stand your ground laws
Quote:As a result, these gun-toting ass-clowns either stay around a bad situation too long, or willingly walk straight into one. In both cases, people needlessly get hurt.

I'm waiting for the day when two of these SYG assholes blow each other away.
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25-07-2013, 12:31 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(25-07-2013 01:14 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:As a result, these gun-toting ass-clowns either stay around a bad situation too long, or willingly walk straight into one. In both cases, people needlessly get hurt.

I'm waiting for the day when two of these SYG assholes blow each other away.

Well...these two SYG-type guys didn't kill each other, but they did make total ass-clowns of themselves while excercising thier inalienable right to be a douchebag. It's quite a story. I wish I had the video.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/pair-...67661.html
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