Poll: Do you agree with the Stand Your Ground Laws
Yes. They are good self-defense laws
No. They are unnecessary and often abused and misused
Unsure. (Comment)
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Stand your ground laws
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18-07-2013, 11:48 AM
RE: Stand your ground laws
I start a thread about the Stand Your Ground Laws, and then you bring the gun debate into it, but still assert that somehow this is about banning guns or guns at all.

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18-07-2013, 11:52 AM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 11:44 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BANNING GUNS?!!!!!!!!!!! Where are you getting this from?

CORRECTION: Carrying guns or using them for self defense.

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18-07-2013, 11:54 AM
RE: Stand your ground laws
I still don't follow what you are trying to say. Are you implying that I am saying that someone cannot have a gun for self-defense or carry one for self-defense?

If so, you are incorrect. Badly so.

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18-07-2013, 11:57 AM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 11:54 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I still don't follow what you are trying to say. Are you implying that I am saying that someone cannot have a gun for self-defense or carry one for self-defense?

If so, you are incorrect. Badly so.

You attitude certainly implies otherwise.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

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18-07-2013, 12:01 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 11:57 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 11:54 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I still don't follow what you are trying to say. Are you implying that I am saying that someone cannot have a gun for self-defense or carry one for self-defense?

If so, you are incorrect. Badly so.

You attitude certainly implies otherwise.

Hold on, let me get this straight. You are implying that I have a secret and hidden agenda to ban guns and you have come to this conclusion based off of how I have never mentioned actually banning guns and have instead mentioned NOT banning guns?

You are an expert strawman builder my friend Thumbsup You should do that professionally. And you must also be psychic. Start a hotline and make some $$$$ telling people what they really want but don't even know themselves.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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18-07-2013, 12:09 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
First of all, that Florida woman's problem was the fact that she left the room where the confrontation was taking place and returned with a firearm. The other problem is that she fired off a warning shot. Now you have the problem of a stray bullet with kids in the home. Irresponsible of her.

Tough situation for her, but that case is shady through and through. She shouldn't have done what she did and that's the bottom line. She had the opportunity to leave the scene and she should have done exactly that... left.

As for Zimmerman, though he did not invoke the Stand Your Ground defense, it is what ultimately protected him. Technically speaking, Zimmerman did not commit a crime granted his account of the incident was true. Do I personally agree with how the law protects him? No way. It's fucked up that some vigilante can stalk someone in the middle of the night without any evidence of a crime against the wishes of the police dispatcher. It's fucked up that this paranoid stalker can approach a kid with a strap and not expect any backlash. In my eyes, GZ instigated this whole mess even though he was acting within the confines of the law. Fuck him.

As for Trayvon, he made a poor choice by attacking GZ for whatever reason. I personally would have stood there and let GZ call the cops to come get me. But Trayvon was just a kid. A kid with a gang-related background. So his reaction isn't surprising. What sucks is that Trayvon will never get a chance to correct his life. I see myself in that kid. I was once that thug walking the streets with a hoodie. I was once that "tough" kid who would readily fight someone for staring at me the wrong way. The difference is, I don't look like a thug. I don't get profiled. To this day, I tell people about my past and they find it hard to believe. They just go on thinking I'm good at math etc... and this is where race becomes an issue with me in regards to this case. I wonder what GZ's actions would have been had Trayvon been a blonde white kid or an Asian.

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18-07-2013, 12:12 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 12:09 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  First of all, that Florida woman's problem was the fact that she left the room where the confrontation was taking place and returned with a firearm. The other problem is that she fired off a warning shot. Now you have the problem of a stray bullet with kids in the home. Irresponsible of her.

Tough situation for her, but that case is shady through and through. She shouldn't have done what she did and that's the bottom line. She had the opportunity to leave the scene and she should have done exactly that... left.

As for Zimmerman, though he did not invoke the Stand Your Ground defense, it is what ultimately protected him. Technically speaking, Zimmerman did not commit a crime granted his account of the incident was true. Do I personally agree with how the law protects him? No way. It's fucked up that some vigilante can stalk someone in the middle of the night without any evidence of a crime against the wishes of the police dispatcher. It's fucked up that this paranoid stalker can approach a kid with a strap and not expect any backlash. In my eyes, GZ instigated this whole mess even though he was acting within the confines of the law. Fuck him.

As for Trayvon, he made a poor choice by attacking GZ for whatever reason. I personally would have stood there and let GZ call the cops to come get me. But Trayvon was just a kid. A kid with a gang-related background. So his reaction isn't surprising. What sucks is that Trayvon will never get a chance to correct his life. I see myself in that kid. I was once that thug walking the streets with a hoodie. I was once that "tough" kid who would readily fight someone for staring at me the wrong way. The difference is, I don't look like a thug. I don't get profiled. To this day, I tell people about my past and they find it hard to believe. They just go on thinking I'm good at math etc... and this is where race becomes an issue with me in regards to this case. I wonder what GZ's actions would have been had Trayvon been a blonde white kid or an Asian.

We have no idea if it is fair to say that Trayvon is the one who attacked first. The only eye witness is the one guy who has motive to lie. Trayvon doesn't get to say his piece.

The law is flawed, that woman could indeed have left and should have thought twice about firing a gun in a house with kids. She had the presence of mind not to shoot him though. And fear is a powerful force. Who is to say that she didn't feel backed into that corner?

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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18-07-2013, 12:16 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 12:01 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 11:57 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  You attitude certainly implies otherwise.

Hold on, let me get this straight. You are implying that I have a secret and hidden agenda to ban guns and you have come to this conclusion based off of how I have never mentioned actually banning guns and have instead mentioned NOT banning guns?

You are an expert strawman builder my friend Thumbsup You should do that professionally. And you must also be psychic. Start a hotline and make some $$$$ telling people what they really want but don't even know themselves.

I think you view people who are pro gun or carry guns for personal protection as cowboys. And I base that on what seems like every post you've written on the subject being "look at Person X who shot someone or did something stupid with a gun. You're conditioning people to believe the public is too stupid or incompetent to handle a gun correctly or apply it competently in a life threatening emergency.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
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18-07-2013, 12:20 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 12:12 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 12:09 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  First of all, that Florida woman's problem was the fact that she left the room where the confrontation was taking place and returned with a firearm. The other problem is that she fired off a warning shot. Now you have the problem of a stray bullet with kids in the home. Irresponsible of her.

Tough situation for her, but that case is shady through and through. She shouldn't have done what she did and that's the bottom line. She had the opportunity to leave the scene and she should have done exactly that... left.

As for Zimmerman, though he did not invoke the Stand Your Ground defense, it is what ultimately protected him. Technically speaking, Zimmerman did not commit a crime granted his account of the incident was true. Do I personally agree with how the law protects him? No way. It's fucked up that some vigilante can stalk someone in the middle of the night without any evidence of a crime against the wishes of the police dispatcher. It's fucked up that this paranoid stalker can approach a kid with a strap and not expect any backlash. In my eyes, GZ instigated this whole mess even though he was acting within the confines of the law. Fuck him.

As for Trayvon, he made a poor choice by attacking GZ for whatever reason. I personally would have stood there and let GZ call the cops to come get me. But Trayvon was just a kid. A kid with a gang-related background. So his reaction isn't surprising. What sucks is that Trayvon will never get a chance to correct his life. I see myself in that kid. I was once that thug walking the streets with a hoodie. I was once that "tough" kid who would readily fight someone for staring at me the wrong way. The difference is, I don't look like a thug. I don't get profiled. To this day, I tell people about my past and they find it hard to believe. They just go on thinking I'm good at math etc... and this is where race becomes an issue with me in regards to this case. I wonder what GZ's actions would have been had Trayvon been a blonde white kid or an Asian.

We have no idea if it is fair to say that Trayvon is the one who attacked first. The only eye witness is the one guy who has motive to lie. Trayvon doesn't get to say his piece.

The law is flawed, that woman could indeed have left and should have thought twice about firing a gun in a house with kids. She had the presence of mind not to shoot him though. And fear is a powerful force. Who is to say that she didn't feel backed into that corner?

No the law is not flawed. You just better know the law and what side you stand on.

This isn't just limited to civilians screwing up these situations. Police, security guards, etc. get suspended, fired, arrested, sued or even sent to prison for misuse of a firearm (and its far more rampant than you would think.
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18-07-2013, 12:21 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 11:30 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 11:27 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Again with the you're-too stupid-and-incompetent-to-protect-yourself routine.

I'm sorry reality offends you but statistics show that you are something like 300% more likely to harm yourself or a family member than an intruder if you own a gun. Those are just the facts, so yeah most people are too incompetent/stupid to safely own a weapon.

Statistics are descriptive, not predictive.

If you confine the sample space to intelligent, trained people you will get a very different result.

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