Poll: Do you agree with the Stand Your Ground Laws
Yes. They are good self-defense laws
No. They are unnecessary and often abused and misused
Unsure. (Comment)
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Stand your ground laws
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18-07-2013, 12:22 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 12:16 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 12:01 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Hold on, let me get this straight. You are implying that I have a secret and hidden agenda to ban guns and you have come to this conclusion based off of how I have never mentioned actually banning guns and have instead mentioned NOT banning guns?

You are an expert strawman builder my friend Thumbsup You should do that professionally. And you must also be psychic. Start a hotline and make some $$$$ telling people what they really want but don't even know themselves.

I think you view people who are pro gun or carry guns for personal protection as cowboys. And I base that on what seems like every post you've written on the subject being "look at Person X who shot someone or did something stupid with a gun. You're conditioning people to believe the public is too stupid or incompetent to handle a gun correctly or apply it competently in a life threatening emergency.

You know what they say about people who assume, right?

I don't view people who carry guns for personal protection as being "cowboys" but I do view them as paranoid. I do not envy them for thinking that they live in a world that necessitates constantly being on-guard.

And please, for the umpteenth time, where do I say anything about pro-gun advocates being stupid? Please show me.

Keep on building strawmen though. You'll run out of hay eventually. Drinking Beverage

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18-07-2013, 12:23 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 12:20 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 12:12 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  We have no idea if it is fair to say that Trayvon is the one who attacked first. The only eye witness is the one guy who has motive to lie. Trayvon doesn't get to say his piece.

The law is flawed, that woman could indeed have left and should have thought twice about firing a gun in a house with kids. She had the presence of mind not to shoot him though. And fear is a powerful force. Who is to say that she didn't feel backed into that corner?

No the law is not flawed. You just better know the law and what side you stand on.

This isn't just limited to civilians screwing up these situations. Police, security guards, etc. get suspended, fired, arrested, sued or even sent to prison for misuse of a firearm (and its far more rampant than you would think.

Knowing how to use the law to avoid prosecution, does not mean it is a morally favorable position. It is a morally flawed law that is an unnecessary addition to self-defense laws.

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18-07-2013, 12:24 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
How the law is written and how it is applied would make all the difference.

As a basic right, I see no reason why I should yield to an aggressor.

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18-07-2013, 12:24 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 12:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 11:30 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I'm sorry reality offends you but statistics show that you are something like 300% more likely to harm yourself or a family member than an intruder if you own a gun. Those are just the facts, so yeah most people are too incompetent/stupid to safely own a weapon.

Statistics are descriptive, not predictive.

If you confine the sample space to intelligent, trained people you will get a very different result.

But not a result that is devoid of misuse or improper use.

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18-07-2013, 12:25 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 12:12 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 12:09 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  First of all, that Florida woman's problem was the fact that she left the room where the confrontation was taking place and returned with a firearm. The other problem is that she fired off a warning shot. Now you have the problem of a stray bullet with kids in the home. Irresponsible of her.

Tough situation for her, but that case is shady through and through. She shouldn't have done what she did and that's the bottom line. She had the opportunity to leave the scene and she should have done exactly that... left.

As for Zimmerman, though he did not invoke the Stand Your Ground defense, it is what ultimately protected him. Technically speaking, Zimmerman did not commit a crime granted his account of the incident was true. Do I personally agree with how the law protects him? No way. It's fucked up that some vigilante can stalk someone in the middle of the night without any evidence of a crime against the wishes of the police dispatcher. It's fucked up that this paranoid stalker can approach a kid with a strap and not expect any backlash. In my eyes, GZ instigated this whole mess even though he was acting within the confines of the law. Fuck him.

As for Trayvon, he made a poor choice by attacking GZ for whatever reason. I personally would have stood there and let GZ call the cops to come get me. But Trayvon was just a kid. A kid with a gang-related background. So his reaction isn't surprising. What sucks is that Trayvon will never get a chance to correct his life. I see myself in that kid. I was once that thug walking the streets with a hoodie. I was once that "tough" kid who would readily fight someone for staring at me the wrong way. The difference is, I don't look like a thug. I don't get profiled. To this day, I tell people about my past and they find it hard to believe. They just go on thinking I'm good at math etc... and this is where race becomes an issue with me in regards to this case. I wonder what GZ's actions would have been had Trayvon been a blonde white kid or an Asian.

We have no idea if it is fair to say that Trayvon is the one who attacked first. The only eye witness is the one guy who has motive to lie. Trayvon doesn't get to say his piece.

The law is flawed, that woman could indeed have left and should have thought twice about firing a gun in a house with kids. She had the presence of mind not to shoot him though. And fear is a powerful force. Who is to say that she didn't feel backed into that corner?

I am acting as if GZ's account of the attack is true. That is all we can do in this situation because even the Police (fuck them too by the way) confirm that he was bloodied. They couldn't find any evidence contrary to his account. So I am basing my comments off of that. If Trayvon didn't attack GZ, then the man definitely broke a law. But in all honesty, I feel that Trayvon did attack GZ. But I personally think Trayvon was fighting because he felt his life was in danger.

GZ has a history of doing this. I find it hard to believe he just walked up and shot someone this time. I think he just fucked with the wrong person in this case.

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18-07-2013, 12:25 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 12:20 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 12:12 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  We have no idea if it is fair to say that Trayvon is the one who attacked first. The only eye witness is the one guy who has motive to lie. Trayvon doesn't get to say his piece.

The law is flawed, that woman could indeed have left and should have thought twice about firing a gun in a house with kids. She had the presence of mind not to shoot him though. And fear is a powerful force. Who is to say that she didn't feel backed into that corner?

No the law is not flawed. You just better know the law and what side you stand on.

This isn't just limited to civilians screwing up these situations. Police, security guards, etc. get suspended, fired, arrested, sued or even sent to prison for misuse of a firearm (and its far more rampant than you would think.

Wow you are all over the place on this man. The Law that lets someone stalk a unarmed person and shot to kill if they feel "threatened" is not flawed? But then in the next breathe you claim to it's not just civilians but everyone who misuse guns (I don't disagree with that) Why is it that nowhere else on this forum is an appeal to emotion and illogic acceptable unless you bring up laws regarding a deadly weapon?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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18-07-2013, 12:25 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 12:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  How the law is written and how it is applied would make all the difference.

As a basic right, I see no reason why I should yield to an aggressor.

It's not about yielding to an aggressor, it asserts that if you feel threatened, you have the right to preemptively attack them.

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18-07-2013, 12:26 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 12:25 PM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 12:12 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  We have no idea if it is fair to say that Trayvon is the one who attacked first. The only eye witness is the one guy who has motive to lie. Trayvon doesn't get to say his piece.

The law is flawed, that woman could indeed have left and should have thought twice about firing a gun in a house with kids. She had the presence of mind not to shoot him though. And fear is a powerful force. Who is to say that she didn't feel backed into that corner?

I am acting as if GZ's account of the attack is true. That is all we can do in this situation because even the Police (fuck them too by the way) confirm that he was bloodied. They couldn't find any evidence contrary to his account. So I am basing my comments off of that. If Trayvon didn't attack GZ, then the man definitely broke a law. But in all honesty, I feel that Trayvon did attack GZ. But I personally think Trayvon was fighting because he felt his life was in danger.

GZ has a history of doing this. I find it hard to believe he just walked up and shot someone this time. I think he just fucked with the wrong person in this case.

I'm not saying he walked up and shot him, but I am saying that he may have walked up to him and instigated that altercation with the intention of escalating it into a fight. Then he may have found himself overwhelmed, and killed him.

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18-07-2013, 12:28 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 12:23 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 12:20 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  No the law is not flawed. You just better know the law and what side you stand on.

This isn't just limited to civilians screwing up these situations. Police, security guards, etc. get suspended, fired, arrested, sued or even sent to prison for misuse of a firearm (and its far more rampant than you would think.

Knowing how to use the law to avoid prosecution, does not mean it is a morally favorable position. It is a morally flawed law that is an unnecessary addition to self-defense laws.

I'd say shooting someone who endangers your life is a morally favorable position.

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18-07-2013, 12:30 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
Some of the original motivation for them was justified. They were written, not taking into account all the unintended consequences. So, I couldn't vote. They need to be re-written in light of the abuses that have come to light after they were passed.

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