Poll: Do you agree with the Stand Your Ground Laws
Yes. They are good self-defense laws
No. They are unnecessary and often abused and misused
Unsure. (Comment)
[Show Results]
 
Stand your ground laws
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
18-07-2013, 01:21 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 01:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 01:01 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  A highly subjective and emotional opinion, is not a good reason for allowing someone to be able to kill another human.

You might want to think that through to its logical end.

If I am attacked and not allowed to defend myself, I die.
If I am allowed to defend myself, the bad guy(s) die.

Seems pretty clear to me.Drinking Beverage

But "feeling threatened" is very different from actually being threatened or in a threatening situation.

If you are in an argument with someone and they threaten you, would the best defense not simply be to walk away?

If you pull a gun first, are you not escalating the argument into a life threatening situation?

If the aggressor pulls the gun, do you think you are more or less likely to be shot if you reach for your own gun?

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-07-2013, 01:22 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 01:11 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 01:03 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  No. There's nothing new about justifiable homicide. It's been a legal concept for as long as murder, practically.

It's not always easy or as black and white as you might think. We saw that during Zimmerman's trial.

Ah yes the Zimmerman case, where an armed man followed an unarmed teenager and then fatally shot him and was acquitted because in Florida that does not count as manslaughter.

As far as justifiable homicide the law needs to be crystal clear not a muddy pool. Thats the problem with the stand your ground laws they muddy the water too much.

If you think that, you have no idea what was at stake in that trial and don't have a clue as to that happened there.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-07-2013, 01:31 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 01:22 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 01:11 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Ah yes the Zimmerman case, where an armed man followed an unarmed teenager and then fatally shot him and was acquitted because in Florida that does not count as manslaughter.

As far as justifiable homicide the law needs to be crystal clear not a muddy pool. Thats the problem with the stand your ground laws they muddy the water too much.

If you think that, you have no idea what was at stake in that trial and don't have a clue as to that happened there.

Man called 911 said he saw a suspicious black man (not exactly what he said but I'll keep the racists slang out) then said he was going to follow him 911 operator told him "We don't need you to do that" after that he followed the unarmed teenager for some distance until the teenager confronted him. At this point it is hard to say what exactly transpired because Zimmerman's testimony changed multiple times. The end result is Zimmerman had some lacerations to the head and a bloody nose Martin was shot dead.

Please explain how that is not manslaughter. 1 party provoked an interaction the 2nd party (unarmed) was killed because of it. At no point did Travon Martin break the law until the confrontation with Zimmerman (and even after that it is impossible to say what exactly transpired due to the lack of witnesses and Zimmermans testimony)

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-07-2013, 01:43 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 01:21 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 01:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  You might want to think that through to its logical end.

If I am attacked and not allowed to defend myself, I die.
If I am allowed to defend myself, the bad guy(s) die.

Seems pretty clear to me.Drinking Beverage

But "feeling threatened" is very different from actually being threatened or in a threatening situation.

I've already said that 'feeling threatened' isn't enough. You have to be assaulted.

Quote:If you are in an argument with someone and they threaten you, would the best defense not simply be to walk away?

Yes, walking (or running) away is an excellent option - if available.

Quote:If you pull a gun first, are you not escalating the argument into a life threatening situation?

Not necessarily. It might be 6'4" 240lb. man, there might be multiple attackers, the attacker might be armed, and so on.

Quote:If the aggressor pulls the gun, do you think you are more or less likely to be shot if you reach for your own gun?

That depends on the situation. But if the attacker draws a weapon, I'm already in the right to kill him.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Chas's post
18-07-2013, 01:49 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 01:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 01:21 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  But "feeling threatened" is very different from actually being threatened or in a threatening situation.

I've already said that 'feeling threatened' isn't enough. You have to be assaulted.

Quote:If you are in an argument with someone and they threaten you, would the best defense not simply be to walk away?

Yes, walking (or running) away is an excellent option - if available.

Quote:If you pull a gun first, are you not escalating the argument into a life threatening situation?

Not necessarily. It might be 6'4" 240lb. man, there might be multiple attackers, the attacker might be armed, and so on.

Quote:If the aggressor pulls the gun, do you think you are more or less likely to be shot if you reach for your own gun?

That depends on the situation. But if the attacker draws a weapon, I'm already in the right to kill him.

If there are multiple attackers, it's probably fair to say that getting away is the first and most immediate response that makes sense.

And being in the right to draw a firearm, doesn't mean you have a snowball's chance in hell of surviving because you are now putting them in a position to fire on you. And it has the effect of exponentially increasing the severity of the situation. I'd hope you would agree that talking the situation down would be preferable?

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-07-2013, 01:56 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 01:49 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 01:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  I've already said that 'feeling threatened' isn't enough. You have to be assaulted.


Yes, walking (or running) away is an excellent option - if available.


Not necessarily. It might be 6'4" 240lb. man, there might be multiple attackers, the attacker might be armed, and so on.


That depends on the situation. But if the attacker draws a weapon, I'm already in the right to kill him.

If there are multiple attackers, it's probably fair to say that getting away is the first and most immediate response that makes sense.

And being in the right to draw a firearm, doesn't mean you have a snowball's chance in hell of surviving because you are now putting them in a position to fire on you. And it has the effect of exponentially increasing the severity of the situation. I'd hope you would agree that talking the situation down would be preferable?

I think most people would agree that escalation is not the best option.

There are times when you are not given that luxury. If somebody is placed in that situation they should kill the attacker. I'm not talking "feeling threatened". I mean you have to act or else.

There will always be a certain gray area due to the nature of the issue and the time scale involved in making the decision.

That is why clearly written laws help. Where Chas and I live you'd better be right or your the one in jail.

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-07-2013, 01:57 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 01:49 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 01:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  I've already said that 'feeling threatened' isn't enough. You have to be assaulted.


Yes, walking (or running) away is an excellent option - if available.


Not necessarily. It might be 6'4" 240lb. man, there might be multiple attackers, the attacker might be armed, and so on.


That depends on the situation. But if the attacker draws a weapon, I'm already in the right to kill him.

If there are multiple attackers, it's probably fair to say that getting away is the first and most immediate response that makes sense.

And being in the right to draw a firearm, doesn't mean you have a snowball's chance in hell of surviving because you are now putting them in a position to fire on you. And it has the effect of exponentially increasing the severity of the situation. I'd hope you would agree that talking the situation down would be preferable?


Of course escape is preferable to a gunfight, but sometimes we haven't got a lot of options.

Once the aggressor has show a gun, the situation is already critical.
I have to make a judgement as to the intent of the aggressor. If the aggressor just wants my wallet, then I don't draw the weapon; if the aggressor's intent is mayhem or murder, I do.

But one legal option I want is the right to defend myself.
If the bad guy doesn't believe I have that option, I'm in deep shit.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
18-07-2013, 02:06 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 01:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  If I am allowed to defend myself, the bad guy(s) die.

I would reword that to, "I might have a fighting chance."

[Image: Untitled-2.png?_subject_uid=322943157&am...Y7Dzq4lJog]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-07-2013, 02:09 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 01:57 PM)Chas Wrote:  I have to make a judgement as to the intent of the aggressor. If the aggressor just wants my wallet, then I don't draw the weapon; if the aggressor's intent is mayhem or murder, I do.

In the extremely unlikely case that the aggressor wants you dead, you would probably be dead before were able to draw your weapon. Just what the hell do you do in your life that would spark a scenario like this anyway, Chas?

[Image: Untitled-2.png?_subject_uid=322943157&am...Y7Dzq4lJog]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-07-2013, 02:11 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:06 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 01:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  If I am allowed to defend myself, the bad guy(s) die.

I would reword that to, "I might have a fighting chance."

True, but I am a good shot. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: