Poll: Do you agree with the Stand Your Ground Laws
Yes. They are good self-defense laws
No. They are unnecessary and often abused and misused
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Stand your ground laws
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18-07-2013, 02:26 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:25 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 01:31 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Man called 911 said he saw a suspicious black man (not exactly what he said but I'll keep the racists slang out) then said he was going to follow him 911 operator told him "We don't need you to do that" after that he followed the unarmed teenager for some distance until the teenager confronted him. At this point it is hard to say what exactly transpired because Zimmerman's testimony changed multiple times. The end result is Zimmerman had some lacerations to the head and a bloody nose Martin was shot dead.

Please explain how that is not manslaughter. 1 party provoked an interaction the 2nd party (unarmed) was killed because of it. At no point did Travon Martin break the law until the confrontation with Zimmerman (and even after that it is impossible to say what exactly transpired due to the lack of witnesses and Zimmermans testimony)

Depends on who you ask. Zimmerman claimed Martin had him down on the ground and had smashed his head into the curb. Given that happened, it's reasonable to assume he felt Martin was trying to kill him and he shot him at that point. If that's true, then Zimmerman was fully justified to kill him under the boundaries of justifiable homicide.

Zimmerman also has the motive to lie, not to mention that his story changed multiple times throughout the investigation.

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18-07-2013, 02:27 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:26 PM)Dom Wrote:  I'm taking zero chances. And - home invasions even in the daytime when all inhabitants are home take place quite often, and they are generally brutal.

Statistics indicate otherwise.

(18-07-2013 02:26 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Are you willing to bet your life on that?

I am. That is why I do not own a firearm.

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18-07-2013, 02:28 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:22 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:18 PM)Dom Wrote:  All I know is that, if I am sleeping in my bed, and I hear someone in the house, I am grabbing my gun, and if the dog doesn't take him down (which he will) I'm gonna shoot before I ask questions.

If the dog takes him down, then I can walk in with my gun, call the dog off and call the cops while holding the guy at gun point and dog point.

I ain't fooling around with anyone who intrudes in my house at night.

That said, I don't go around following people, they have to break into my house.

Being armed and following someone who is outside should be punishable IMO.

If someone breaks into your house, they want to steal something. Because he is a burglar, he would most likely disengage and flee. There would be no violence necessary. The amount of strangers that commit murder in someone else's house is extremely low. Not saying you don't have the right, I am simply stating facts here.

And where Chas and I live if you went to confront them (even if they were armed) and shot them you would be the one in jail. You cannot defend property with deadly force. The law is clear.

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18-07-2013, 02:29 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:22 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:18 PM)Dom Wrote:  All I know is that, if I am sleeping in my bed, and I hear someone in the house, I am grabbing my gun, and if the dog doesn't take him down (which he will) I'm gonna shoot before I ask questions.

If the dog takes him down, then I can walk in with my gun, call the dog off and call the cops while holding the guy at gun point and dog point.

I ain't fooling around with anyone who intrudes in my house at night.

That said, I don't go around following people, they have to break into my house.

Being armed and following someone who is outside should be punishable IMO.

This is the difference between a castle law and Stand your ground. In your scenario you have every right to defend life and home against an intruder. However outside of ones home the statutes go from being "common sense" to being very murky and seemingly leaning towards vigilantism.

To me, the fact that Zimmerman followed the guy is where the real issue is. If Zimmerman had been standing there and Trevon had started a fight like that, I wouldn't pass judgement. But following, even after the police said not to, that puts him in the wrong IMO.

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18-07-2013, 02:29 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:25 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 01:31 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Man called 911 said he saw a suspicious black man (not exactly what he said but I'll keep the racists slang out) then said he was going to follow him 911 operator told him "We don't need you to do that" after that he followed the unarmed teenager for some distance until the teenager confronted him. At this point it is hard to say what exactly transpired because Zimmerman's testimony changed multiple times. The end result is Zimmerman had some lacerations to the head and a bloody nose Martin was shot dead.

Please explain how that is not manslaughter. 1 party provoked an interaction the 2nd party (unarmed) was killed because of it. At no point did Travon Martin break the law until the confrontation with Zimmerman (and even after that it is impossible to say what exactly transpired due to the lack of witnesses and Zimmermans testimony)

Depends on who you ask. Zimmerman claimed Martin had him down on the ground and had smashed his head into the curb. Given that happened, it's reasonable to assume he felt Martin was trying to kill him and he shot him at that point. If that's true, then Zimmerman was fully justified to kill him under the boundaries of justifiable homicide.

2 problems with that, first as I said multiple times Zimmerman's story changed multiple times. Secondly He claims Martin was slamming his head against the ground when he pull the gun and shot. His gun was holstered at the small of his back so either he already had the gun out and Martin was fighting for his life (the crying for help over the 911 call suggests that) or he was on top of the pile when he drew. In either case that is not self defense it is manslaughter.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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18-07-2013, 02:29 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:26 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:22 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  If someone breaks into your house, they want to steal something. Because he is a burglar, he would most likely disengage and flee. There would be no violence necessary. The amount of strangers that commit murder in someone else's house is extremely low. Not saying you don't have the right, I am simply stating facts here.

I'm taking zero chances. And - home invasions even in the daytime when all inhabitants are home take place quite often, and they are generally brutal.

No way am I going to take a chance in a case like that.

Yup....What she said.

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18-07-2013, 02:30 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:29 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:26 PM)Dom Wrote:  I'm taking zero chances. And - home invasions even in the daytime when all inhabitants are home take place quite often, and they are generally brutal.

No way am I going to take a chance in a case like that.

Yup....What she said.

Congrats on agreeing with something I have already refuted.

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18-07-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:09 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 01:57 PM)Chas Wrote:  I have to make a judgement as to the intent of the aggressor. If the aggressor just wants my wallet, then I don't draw the weapon; if the aggressor's intent is mayhem or murder, I do.

In the extremely unlikely case that the aggressor wants you dead, you would probably be dead before were able to draw your weapon. Just what the hell do you do in your life that would spark a scenario like this anyway, Chas?

We're not talking mob hit or assassination. In that case, I'm dead before I heard the shot. Weeping

We're talking about lowlife assholes who prey on others. They pick targets of opportunity, and they lack impulse control and empathy.

I am a 5'4" 140 lb. (162.5cm 64kg), slightly handicapped, 63 year-old man, though I'm quite fit.

I live in a semi-rural setting, not visible to neighbors. There are occasionally break-ins in the area.

I often walk the rural roads, in the woods, and in the wetlands with camera gear.
Or I am out in the middle of the night with a telescope.

I drive a nice car, usually carrying said camera gear or telescope.

So, all in all, I'm a potential target. I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it because I'm prepared to defend myself.

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18-07-2013, 02:32 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:09 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  In the extremely unlikely case that the aggressor wants you dead, you would probably be dead before were able to draw your weapon. Just what the hell do you do in your life that would spark a scenario like this anyway, Chas?

We're not talking mob hit or assassination. In that case, I'm dead before I heard the shot. Weeping

We're talking about lowlife assholes who prey on others. They pick targets of opportunity, and they lack impulse control and empathy.

I am a 5'4" 140 lb. (162.5cm 64kg), slightly handicapped, 63 year-old man, though I'm quite fit.

I live in a semi-rural setting, not visible to neighbors. There are occasionally break-ins in the area.

I often walk the rural roads, in the woods, and in the wetlands with camera gear.
Or I am out in the middle of the night with a telescope.

I drive a nice car, usually carrying said camera gear or telescope.

So, all in all, I'm a potential target. I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it because I'm prepared to defend myself.

Yes, you are a target for theft, not for a gunfight, Chas.

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18-07-2013, 02:32 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:27 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:26 PM)Dom Wrote:  I'm taking zero chances. And - home invasions even in the daytime when all inhabitants are home take place quite often, and they are generally brutal.

Statistics indicate otherwise.

(18-07-2013 02:26 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Are you willing to bet your life on that?

I am. That is why I do not own a firearm.

Well, I am not willing to end up on the smaller side of the statistics. You break into my home, you better pray the dog gets you before I do. And since Drago is a trained police dog, it is pretty sure that he will.

BTW, when I was younger I didn't own a gun and felt the same way you do. I've changed my mind.

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