Poll: Do you agree with the Stand Your Ground Laws
Yes. They are good self-defense laws
No. They are unnecessary and often abused and misused
Unsure. (Comment)
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Stand your ground laws
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18-07-2013, 02:33 PM (This post was last modified: 18-07-2013 02:40 PM by Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver.)
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:29 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:25 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Depends on who you ask. Zimmerman claimed Martin had him down on the ground and had smashed his head into the curb. Given that happened, it's reasonable to assume he felt Martin was trying to kill him and he shot him at that point. If that's true, then Zimmerman was fully justified to kill him under the boundaries of justifiable homicide.

2 problems with that, first as I said multiple times Zimmerman's story changed multiple times. Secondly He claims Martin was slamming his head against the ground when he pull the gun and shot. His gun was holstered at the small of his back so either he already had the gun out and Martin was fighting for his life (the crying for help over the 911 call suggests that) or he was on top of the pile when he drew. In either case that is not self defense it is manslaughter.

You have a witness to that? The only ones available seems to be Zimmerman and a deadman.

I'm not saying Zimmerman did not commit murder here. It is possible he did. But the preponderance of the evidence indicates a self defense shooting. Or at least the evidence that would stand up in a court of law.

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18-07-2013, 02:33 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:14 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  True, but I am a good shot. Drinking Beverage

But that won't matter if they already have their gun pulled on you.

Actually, it will. Most people are not very good shots, and I don't think criminal lowlifes spend a lot of time at the range. Dodgy

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18-07-2013, 02:35 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:17 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  True, but I am a good shot. Drinking Beverage

To add to what TheBeardedDude said, have ever tried to shoot a person while under fire?

Not in fact, but in simulation.

But I'll bet the lowlifes don't have the experience either.

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18-07-2013, 02:36 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:14 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  But that won't matter if they already have their gun pulled on you.

Actually, it will. Most people are not very good shots, and I don't think criminal lowlifes spend a lot of time at the range. Dodgy

Not to be a prick, but I think you both overestimate your skills while underestimating theirs.

Underestimating your opponent seems like the exact opposite thing you should do. Would it not make more sense to assume they are well trained instead of gambling that they aren't?

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18-07-2013, 02:41 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:36 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  Actually, it will. Most people are not very good shots, and I don't think criminal lowlifes spend a lot of time at the range. Dodgy

Not to be a prick, but I think you both overestimate your skills while underestimating theirs.

Underestimating your opponent seems like the exact opposite thing you should do. Would it not make more sense to assume they are well trained instead of gambling that they aren't?

One should never underestimate their opponent.

It doesn't mean you lay down and die. Drinking Beverage

If I'm attacked and have the abillity to stike back I will.

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18-07-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:41 PM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:36 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Not to be a prick, but I think you both overestimate your skills while underestimating theirs.

Underestimating your opponent seems like the exact opposite thing you should do. Would it not make more sense to assume they are well trained instead of gambling that they aren't?

One should never underestimate their opponent.

It doesn't mean you lay down and die. Drinking Beverage

If I'm attacked and have the abillity to stike back I will.

I am not saying to lay down and die. I am saying to be smart.

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18-07-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:33 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:29 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  2 problems with that, first as I said multiple times Zimmerman's story changed multiple times. Secondly He claims Martin was slamming his head against the ground when he pull the gun and shot. His gun was holstered at the small of his back so either he already had the gun out and Martin was fighting for his life (the crying for help over the 911 call suggests that) or he was on top of the pile when he drew. In either case that is not self defense it is manslaughter.

You have a witness to that? The only ones available seems to be Zimmerman and a deadman.

I'm not saying Zimmerman did not commit murder here. It is possible he did. But the preponderance of the evidence indicates a self defense shooting.

A witness no but I do have logic and facts. Gun holstered at the small of his back while Travon was on top of him slamming him into the ground means he would not have been able to pull his gun at that time.

I disagree about the evidence showing this to be self defense everything Zimmerman did after the incident are the actions of a guilty man trying to paint himself in the best possible light. Even his defense was effectively a rape defense flip the story and make it about the victim. Outside of Florida (who can't get a slam dunk conviction on anything these days) He probably gets at least Man 1 (personally I felt that Murder 2 was way overboard for the events)

Overall what I think happened (and I have looked at the evidence as much as one could without being on either legal team) Zimmerman wanted to play Cop and harassed someone who fought back, the situation got out of control because of his actions and he ends up killing an unarmed kid for walking down the wrong street.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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18-07-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:32 PM)Dom Wrote:  Well, I am not willing to end up on the smaller side of the statistics. You break into my home, you better pray the dog gets you before I do. And since Drago is a trained police dog, it is pretty sure that he will.

Then why do you drive a car? Why do you walk in the streets? Why do you climb up and down stairs? Why do you even breathe? I mean, the fatalities included in these activities are so marginally small, but they are more likely than your dying from a home intruder.

(18-07-2013 02:32 PM)Dom Wrote:  BTW, when I was younger I didn't own a gun and felt the same way you do. I've changed my mind.

I don't care if you changed your mind. I don't care if you owned a gun then or now. I am simply telling you that, in all probability, you will be killing a fleeing thief, not a killer.

(18-07-2013 02:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  Not in fact, but in simulation.

But I'll bet the lowlifes don't have the experience either.

Ah, so you make blind assumptions. Seems like something I'd want to do while operating a device specifically designed to take a life in a heated, desperate moment. You are already making the massive leap in assuming you will be in a gunfight, just take the extra step and assume the attacker will have been trained by the military.

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18-07-2013, 02:54 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:36 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  Actually, it will. Most people are not very good shots, and I don't think criminal lowlifes spend a lot of time at the range. Dodgy

Not to be a prick, but I think you both overestimate your skills while underestimating theirs.

Underestimating your opponent seems like the exact opposite thing you should do. Would it not make more sense to assume they are well trained instead of gambling that they aren't?

And that is why I have a police dog in addition to the gun. He is like a gun that can judge people, preempt what they will do, smell them and hear them before I can and he moves quietly and fast like the wind.

If the intruder has any sense, he will stand still and not fight the dog. That way the dog just guards him while I call the cops. However, if he tries to run, reach towards any part of his body or tries to fight the dog, the dog will fight. The dogs don't kill, but they always win.

Hence, once he has made the bad choice to break into my home, the intruder has 3 more choices - stand still and wait for the cops to take him to jail, fail to stand still and get hurt and then go to jail, or get shot.

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18-07-2013, 02:58 PM
RE: Stand your ground laws
(18-07-2013 02:50 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(18-07-2013 02:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  Not in fact, but in simulation.

But I'll bet the lowlifes don't have the experience either.

Ah, so you make blind assumptions. Seems like something I'd want to do while operating a device specifically designed to take a life in a heated, desperate moment. You are already making the massive leap in assuming you will be in a gunfight, just take the extra step and assume the attacker will have been trained by the military.

Not a blind assumption, a statistical one.

It's risk assessment. One calculates the value of the loss against its probability.
The life threatening situation has a low probability, but a very high value.

Driving is risky, but I'm a skilled driver having taken practical defensive driving classes; I have avoided road accidents that happened right in my path by staying calm and taking the right actions. I drive a well-designed, well-maintained car, and I drive defensively.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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