Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
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12-04-2012, 09:37 PM
Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
I assume when I say Hitler - few words pops up in your head automatically

1 - Tyrant
2 - Crazy
3 - Evil
4 - Monster
5 - Hatred

Without doubt, Hitler's action is definitely cruel, inhuman and extreme - so, I guess the idea of tyrant and monster does fit his image. However, does this have anything to do with madness? and evil?

First of all, evil does not exist, the justice belongs to the victor, so by evil, it means hes the loser.

But, going into the crazy and hatred part.

I think Hitler is a master of mind, a born leader who manipulate the mind of the common people. Every mind manipulator, aka, leader; have a method to gain support from the ignorant common. Obama use hope, and the idea of "change" when everything were down, to successfully won the election and then all he did is sit on his ass and does nothing. The Pope use divinity, and the idea of "God" when everyone needs a spiritual support to gain his influence.

Hitler on the other hand, used "pointing fingers at blacksheeps" and the idea of "people's hate" to gain his crown. He purposely picks the people that the majority of German's dislikes, make up some ridiculous excuses to blame them. I mean, yes, the Jews were rich - thats because they invest money wisely and save money, unlike the Germans public who just blow up all their earnings on beer sausage and whores. Nonetheless, the rich Jews becomes the target of envy from the public. Hitler saw this opportunity and round up the people to become his support - and did unspeakable act.

So - was Hitler the one to blame for? Was Hitler the one who came up with nasty ideas? No, its the German public - All Hitler did is to organize and use dislikes of Jews to turn them into likes of himself.
(PS - wait, then hes not a tyrant, hes a people's man.... also, does this also means Hitler is like Jesus? He took the blame of the world, discriminating Jews were the idea of German people, his act made Germans to realize discrimination is wrong with his extreme act, and took the blame for the bad things that he did because people supported it)


Anyway, back to Hitler's act.

Yes, Concentration camp, bad, definitely, without a doubt, holocaust, bad, without a doubt.
However, did you see the flaw?

If Hitler was planning to mass murder all the people - why would he build the camp in the first place? Why can't him just execute people and dump them into the woods or river, or round them up by group and kill them directly? like any tyrant and massacre in human history.

Instead, Hitler build up camps (after pillage them ofc) - put records for everyone - give them cloth - give them "some food" (not enough though) - put guards.
and asks them to work

However, we can all image the work efficiency of starving people, and whatever how much the people in the concentration produce, its not profit-gaining - Why would Hitler spend money to keep a group of people he is planning to kill to stay alive? and why would you make record of people you are planning to make them vanish from this world?

Hitler promised Germany is Germans only, and he did, he state he banished all Jews (and others the common dislikes) from Germany and sent them to other countries - and clearly this is untrue because they all in camps. and any normal person would know, by sending these people to other country, they will unite with others to turn against you for pillaging them and for the discrimination. So instead, Hitler put them in camps.
(Wow, he actually stick to his promise, see that Obama!)

Now, the holocaust - personally, I think holocaust actually saved Germany's name in someway. Anyway, why did holocaust happen?
well, is because Germany is losing the war, Hitler realize that if they loss the war, all the prisoner will be free and their story of how they been treated badly will be told to the world media (since they been starving and live in bad condition due to lack of resources as that Germany is losing the war and no longer able to provide money for the camps), and we all know about how media works. A dead corpse tell less story than a living person - easy. So, Hitler decides to take the blame for himself. He killed everyone - so that he focus of the media will be on HIM - instead of the blabbering Jehobvah's Witness (inappropriate joke inserted) . With this act, he also made his people to turn against him. German public no longer accept Hitler as their leader due to his act, therefore making themselves looks innocent despite they are the source of hatred and how Hitler gained his power.

So, if holocaust did not happen. What will happen? People would still support Hitler, making themselves looks like a bunch of haters (which they were) to the world. The Jews will mass report to the media, exaggerate everything - and all this bad names will be targeted at Germany, as a bad nation, rather than Hitler, as a bad tyrant.

So, any comment? Reasonable ones please
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12-04-2012, 10:55 PM
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
I can see in a few more centuries the emergence of "Hitler mythicists." They'll consider the factual version of Nazi Germany's history, at least as much of it that survives through the centuries, so unlikely that they won't believe that it happened that way, and they'll try to argue that the Hitler story came from an ancient solar myth or something.

I like playing these exercises as a cryonicist because they provide perspective on how the passage of time will change the look of familiar things. For example, we tend to treat "the Roman Empire" as a unit, at least through the fall of the Western part of it, even though it lasted for about 500 years. A few thousand years from now, historians might similarly consider the two wars against Iraq in our lifetimes as extensions of the Crusades which happened nearly 1,000 years ago before our time. The dominant religion in the world 10,000 years from now might not start until 8,000 years from now, and the scholars of that time, if they knew about christianity at all, would consider it like we consider the religions our ancestors might have had at the end of the last Ice Age about 10,000 before our time.
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13-04-2012, 01:48 AM
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
Very interesting approach I must say.
But I have some additions/thoughts

I think the problem was not the dislike that Germans had for Jews, it was the dislike that Christians had for Jews. It just happened to be that everyone who was not a Christian was a Jew. See where I'm going?

Also I don't think he started killing them because he saw he was losing the war. It makes him look selfless when in fact he was megalomaniac and afaik I know of his history he, himself, did hate Jews.
And when there where more and more Jews brought to the camp he had to start killing them out of lack of space and fear they would start rebelling. I mean, have 1000 hungry, angry Jews in one place, if you don't make them really really fear you, they will take you down. >> At least that is what I think happened.

There is one point I absolutely disaggree:
Quote: Instead, Hitler build up camps (after pillage them ofc) - put records
for everyone - give them cloth - give them "some food" (not enough
though) - put guards.

and asks them to work
The records weren't even names, they were numbers, and they got the same number on their shirt.
Give them cloth: Yes after making them strip naked, shave their heads, stand in row like that to be checked like animals, and then give them the cheapest clothing ever instead of simply letting them wear what they had.
put guards - Yes, if they wanted to escape they were shot. That was less for protection of them as for making sure that they do what they are told.
and the work was to weaken them, because, do you know what they had to do?, shovel stuff from here to there and back on the next day, carry stones, build some walls and tear them down again. There wasn't any real work unless people like Schindler took them as cheap workers to their factories. But I think (don't know) they were rare.

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13-04-2012, 02:23 AM
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
(13-04-2012 01:48 AM)Leela Wrote:  Very interesting approach I must say.
But I have some additions/thoughts

I think the problem was not the dislike that Germans had for Jews, it was the dislike that Christians had for Jews. It just happened to be that everyone who was not a Christian was a Jew. See where I'm going?

Also I don't think he started killing them because he saw he was losing the war. It makes him look selfless when in fact he was megalomaniac and afaik I know of his history he, himself, did hate Jews.
And when there where more and more Jews brought to the camp he had to start killing them out of lack of space and fear they would start rebelling. I mean, have 1000 hungry, angry Jews in one place, if you don't make them really really fear you, they will take you down. >> At least that is what I think happened.

There is one point I absolutely disaggree:
Quote: Instead, Hitler build up camps (after pillage them ofc) - put records
for everyone - give them cloth - give them "some food" (not enough
though) - put guards.

and asks them to work
The records weren't even names, they were numbers, and they got the same number on their shirt.
Give them cloth: Yes after making them strip naked, shave their heads, stand in row like that to be checked like animals, and then give them the cheapest clothing ever instead of simply letting them wear what they had.
put guards - Yes, if they wanted to escape they were shot. That was less for protection of them as for making sure that they do what they are told.
and the work was to weaken them, because, do you know what they had to do?, shovel stuff from here to there and back on the next day, carry stones, build some walls and tear them down again. There wasn't any real work unless people like Schindler took them as cheap workers to their factories. But I think (don't know) they were rare.
Christian dislikes Jews, but I dont think Christian will hate Jews enough to banish them.

Now think - you are an average German worker, you have no money, you got laid off work, you are half drunk with beer on the street on a cold night
Then you saw a family with well dressed thick cloth and food walking infront of you - from their hair and nose, you can tell, they are Jewish.

Obviously, we are educated people so we will approach cause of the difference between the poor and rich - Rich work hard, invest money wisely, poor earns a little, and blow money on booze - Its a fair world

But for an uneducated man - no, its pure envy. They are foreign and rich, I am local and poor = RAAAGGGGEEE

then you have someone organizing them, saying stuff about we are the good race - boosting confidence = blind patriotism + bible reference= divine justice

and, about the "evidence" and the suggestion of theories what happened during the holocaust - How do we know it is real? Don't forget the law still forbids people to rise question on the existence and the evidence of the holocaust >> why? If they have nothing to hide then why is it illegal to do so? I mean 9/11 have all kinds of things raised, and if the government tried to shut them down it would just make it more suspicious - so instead the government stay clear - and now we know those questions raised where bullshits and the government is telling the truth. We will never truly know what happened to those camps and holocaust until this stupid law becomes void

Still - it does not answer the question - If Hitler was planning to kill them all - why camps? why even numbers? why even cloth, why even make them working hard to make them tired? What is all this for when you can just gas them from day 1?
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13-04-2012, 03:27 AM
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
I don't know what country you are coming from but from Germany I know you are absolutely allowed to question things about the holocaust and to research it as much as you like. Only thing that is not allowed, as I also mentioned in the other thread, is to say that it did not happen or to say that it was a good thing. And I think it is a good thing that these two things are not allowed because if they were it would be easy to forget it, but it was a dark time of history and we can only learn from it and not make the same mistake again if we do remember it.

As for the evidence. I have a bit of evidence in my family. I don't think the lied when they told me about these times. And there are loads of people who are either eye witnesses or survived the camp and are still alive.
The only thing I am sure we will not find out properly, are most of the things that went on inside the government, because I am very sure that these documents, the important ones, have been destroyed or are at least well hidden.
Although I know that some documents about some government projects of the time survived.

And there we are at the "why not kill them immediately" - They did a lot of medical tests and research, and they used the jews for it. And as many died due to such tests and research you needed more. So you have a camp where you simply pull out what ever you need "25 year old female, blue eyes, number 2345" Might not be the whole and single reason for the camps but surely one of them

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13-04-2012, 04:15 AM
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
(13-04-2012 03:27 AM)Leela Wrote:  And there we are at the "why not kill them immediately" - They did a lot of medical tests and research, and they used the jews for it. And as many died due to such tests and research you needed more. So you have a camp where you simply pull out what ever you need "25 year old female, blue eyes, number 2345" Might not be the whole and single reason for the camps but surely one of them

A lot of scientific discoveries were made this way which would probably not have been found out otherwise.

Referring to the OP.

As for the ' why not kill them immediately'. Do you understand how torture of mass amounts of people affects the morale of the enemy?

Every mystery ever solved has turned out to be not magic. - Tim Minchin
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13-04-2012, 05:26 AM
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
Why do you think he wasn't mad? It's easy to think madness and immediately have the image of a raging blabbering lunatic. But madness can be cold and calculating. It can be organised.

Do I personally believe Hitler was some class of psychopath? I actually don't know, but I wouldn't write it off as impossible. I do agree with you on the second part of your post, to a certain extent (or as much as I understood your point). The wrong-doings of many were pinned on the names of a few: We remember Hitler, Himmler, Mengele, as being psychopaths who tortured and murdered millions. Maybe we know a few other names (those are the ones I remember), but they wouldn't have achieved this without the support of many people behind them. And if you see this kind of atrocity and do nothing, and worse continue to follow orders, then you are just as guilty as the people in charge.

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13-04-2012, 06:49 AM
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
(13-04-2012 05:26 AM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  I do agree with you on the second part of your post, to a certain extent (or as much as I understood your point). The wrong-doings of many were pinned on the names of a few: We remember Hitler, Himmler, Mengele, as being psychopaths who tortured and murdered millions. Maybe we know a few other names (those are the ones I remember), but they wouldn't have achieved this without the support of many people behind them. And if you see this kind of atrocity and do nothing, and worse continue to follow orders, then you are just as guilty as the people in charge.
It's easy to forget that Hitler had the support of not only his own nation but much of the world also.

Every mystery ever solved has turned out to be not magic. - Tim Minchin
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13-04-2012, 08:06 AM
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
napoleon, he did not have support of his own nation. that is the problem. he was austrian, and after he tried to become politician there and failed, he did it in germany... he found his dumbasses to follow him in another country...

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13-04-2012, 10:38 AM
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
(13-04-2012 08:06 AM)Leela Wrote:  napoleon, he did not have support of his own nation. that is the problem. he was austrian, and after he tried to become politician there and failed, he did it in germany... he found his dumbasses to follow him in another country...
Yes that is true. But still my point remains a valid one. He had the support of millions.

Every mystery ever solved has turned out to be not magic. - Tim Minchin
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