Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
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13-04-2012, 12:09 PM (This post was last modified: 13-04-2012 08:46 PM by Grassy Knoll.)
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
Hitler was the leader of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, commonly known as the Nazi Party.

BBBB, I submit to you that Hitler and everything he became was not the cause of what happened but merely a symptom of the disease of socialism. It's a system of governing that does not work on such large scales of society. But, when you are totally bought into this system it can never be seen as flawed thus blame for failures are always "made up". Socialism requires the individual to submit to masses. When things start to fail, certain individuals must be blamed. When there are no more individuals left to blame, then certain groups are to blame.

There are two vital steps in the process that led to such violence of Hitlers era and world history.

First: Total conformity is not at all that hard to achieve no matter how absurd on it's face it is. The people of Germany were not at all special with regards to how the psychological aspects of social conformity works. This has been experimented with in controlled studies such as the Asche experiment:





See also the Elevator psychology experiment and the brown eyes blue eyes experiment.


Second: How can normal people be coerced into committing such inhumane things to their fellow humans? This has also been studied and proved that it could definitely happen again in any society. See the Stanley Milgram study on obedience:

The original study





A modern day example:





See also the Stanford Prison experiment and Philip Zimbardo on the Abu Ghraib trials.

So, the people are not really to blame. The Germans were just as normal as any other people everywhere else in the world. It's like someone else here in the forum said "Democracy is when any two idiots can outvote a genius" and the system of total socialization and dictatorship seems to me the crux of this matter. It's more about the constructs of certain systems of hierarchy in which normal social psychology plays out the same every time.
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16-04-2012, 01:42 AM
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
(13-04-2012 12:09 PM)Grassy Knoll Wrote:  Hitler was the leader of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, commonly known as the Nazi Party.

BBBB, I submit to you that Hitler and everything he became was not the cause of what happened but merely a symptom of the disease of socialism. It's a system of governing that does not work on such large scales of society. But, when you are totally bought into this system it can never be seen as flawed thus blame for failures are always "made up". Socialism requires the individual to submit to masses. When things start to fail, certain individuals must be blamed. When there are no more individuals left to blame, then certain groups are to blame.

There are two vital steps in the process that led to such violence of Hitlers era and world history.

First: Total conformity is not at all that hard to achieve no matter how absurd on it's face it is. The people of Germany were not at all special with regards to how the psychological aspects of social conformity works. This has been experimented with in controlled studies such as the Asche experiment:





See also the Elevator psychology experiment and the brown eyes blue eyes experiment.


Second: How can normal people be coerced into committing such inhumane things to their fellow humans? This has also been studied and proved that it could definitely happen again in any society. See the Stanley Milgram study on obedience:

The original study





A modern day example:





See also the Stanford Prison experiment and Philip Zimbardo on the Abu Ghraib trials.

So, the people are not really to blame. The Germans were just as normal as any other people everywhere else in the world. It's like someone else here in the forum said "Democracy is when any two idiots can outvote a genius" and the system of total socialization and dictatorship seems to me the crux of this matter. It's more about the constructs of certain systems of hierarchy in which normal social psychology plays out the same every time.
I think that is because the masses dont want troubles. Despite of taking parts, and supported their leader's plan, but when problem happens, its human natural to blame on others.

In this scenario, I consider the system is more of a - Blame others - others blame others - until all masses reaches a conclusion, which individual should be the scapegoat for the problem.

E.G London Riot - when people got caught, they blame others, and just says they been looting because others have done so. In the end both the victim and government reaches the conclusion that it is the riot leaders to blame for, even though most of the riot menbers dont even know there will be a riot. Instead of address the actual problem - the lack of education to the common people, and their lacking in ability to judge what is right or wrong; the government decides to blame whoever started the riot, investing internet police to troll internet and in attempt to find similar cases to stop
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16-04-2012, 04:36 AM
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
(13-04-2012 12:09 PM)Grassy Knoll Wrote:  BBBB, I submit to you that Hitler and everything he became was not the cause of what happened but merely a symptom of the disease of socialism. It's a system of governing that does not work on such large scales of society. But, when you are totally bought into this system it can never be seen as flawed thus blame for failures are always "made up". Socialism requires the individual to submit to masses. When things start to fail, certain individuals must be blamed. When there are no more individuals left to blame, then certain groups are to blame.

That's one fucked up interpretation of socialism. What books are you reading?

I submit to you that the dangerous keyword in a party called "Nationalist Socialist Party" is not socialist, it's nationalist. Nationalism is dangerous, it is exclusive, xenophobic, and ignorant. It assumes that some people have the right to be somewhere while others don't. It is more likely to lead to deportation, concentration camps, and extermination than an economic system based on cooperative management and social ownership.

"But the point is, find somebody to love. Everything else is overrated." - HouseofCantor
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16-04-2012, 08:24 AM
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
Hitler was a megalomaniac.

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16-04-2012, 09:35 AM
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
(16-04-2012 04:36 AM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  That's one fucked up interpretation of socialism. What books are you reading?

'Basic Economics' by Thomas Sowell

I guess you're right about the nationalist aspect. Good point.
Still not a fan socialism although I've never been anywhere that operates that way. What book should I read about it?
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17-04-2012, 12:40 AM
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
If I remember correctly, Hitler had gonnoreaha which was making him insane.

When I find myself in times of trouble, Richard Dawkins comes to me, speaking words of reason, now I see, now I see.
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19-04-2012, 10:01 AM
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
Ran across an article that speaks to the point I was trying to make about this issue:

Beware of the Little Breivik and Big Hitler in Each of Us
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21-04-2012, 11:28 AM
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
Idk, when I think of Hitler I generally think about his oratory and leadership skills.

I often question whether he actually hated the jews, and/or merely used the existing hatred to unite the country under his leadership.
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21-04-2012, 11:51 AM
RE: Stereotype of Adolf Hitler is a lie?
(12-04-2012 09:37 PM)BlahBlokesBraBroke Wrote:  I assume when I say Hitler - few words pops up in your head automatically

1 - Tyrant
2 - Crazy
3 - Evil
4 - Monster
5 - Hatred

Without doubt, Hitler's action is definitely cruel, inhuman and extreme - so, I guess the idea of tyrant and monster does fit his image. However, does this have anything to do with madness? and evil?

First of all, evil does not exist, the justice belongs to the victor, so by evil, it means hes the loser.

But, going into the crazy and hatred part.

I think Hitler is a master of mind, a born leader who manipulate the mind of the common people. Every mind manipulator, aka, leader; have a method to gain support from the ignorant common. Obama use hope, and the idea of "change" when everything were down, to successfully won the election and then all he did is sit on his ass and does nothing. The Pope use divinity, and the idea of "God" when everyone needs a spiritual support to gain his influence.

Hitler on the other hand, used "pointing fingers at blacksheeps" and the idea of "people's hate" to gain his crown. He purposely picks the people that the majority of German's dislikes, make up some ridiculous excuses to blame them. I mean, yes, the Jews were rich - thats because they invest money wisely and save money, unlike the Germans public who just blow up all their earnings on beer sausage and whores. Nonetheless, the rich Jews becomes the target of envy from the public. Hitler saw this opportunity and round up the people to become his support - and did unspeakable act.

So - was Hitler the one to blame for? Was Hitler the one who came up with nasty ideas? No, its the German public - All Hitler did is to organize and use dislikes of Jews to turn them into likes of himself.
(PS - wait, then hes not a tyrant, hes a people's man.... also, does this also means Hitler is like Jesus? He took the blame of the world, discriminating Jews were the idea of German people, his act made Germans to realize discrimination is wrong with his extreme act, and took the blame for the bad things that he did because people supported it)


Anyway, back to Hitler's act.

Yes, Concentration camp, bad, definitely, without a doubt, holocaust, bad, without a doubt.
However, did you see the flaw?

If Hitler was planning to mass murder all the people - why would he build the camp in the first place? Why can't him just execute people and dump them into the woods or river, or round them up by group and kill them directly? like any tyrant and massacre in human history.

Instead, Hitler build up camps (after pillage them ofc) - put records for everyone - give them cloth - give them "some food" (not enough though) - put guards.
and asks them to work

However, we can all image the work efficiency of starving people, and whatever how much the people in the concentration produce, its not profit-gaining - Why would Hitler spend money to keep a group of people he is planning to kill to stay alive? and why would you make record of people you are planning to make them vanish from this world?

Hitler promised Germany is Germans only, and he did, he state he banished all Jews (and others the common dislikes) from Germany and sent them to other countries - and clearly this is untrue because they all in camps. and any normal person would know, by sending these people to other country, they will unite with others to turn against you for pillaging them and for the discrimination. So instead, Hitler put them in camps.
(Wow, he actually stick to his promise, see that Obama!)

Now, the holocaust - personally, I think holocaust actually saved Germany's name in someway. Anyway, why did holocaust happen?
well, is because Germany is losing the war, Hitler realize that if they loss the war, all the prisoner will be free and their story of how they been treated badly will be told to the world media (since they been starving and live in bad condition due to lack of resources as that Germany is losing the war and no longer able to provide money for the camps), and we all know about how media works. A dead corpse tell less story than a living person - easy. So, Hitler decides to take the blame for himself. He killed everyone - so that he focus of the media will be on HIM - instead of the blabbering Jehobvah's Witness (inappropriate joke inserted) . With this act, he also made his people to turn against him. German public no longer accept Hitler as their leader due to his act, therefore making themselves looks innocent despite they are the source of hatred and how Hitler gained his power.

So, if holocaust did not happen. What will happen? People would still support Hitler, making themselves looks like a bunch of haters (which they were) to the world. The Jews will mass report to the media, exaggerate everything - and all this bad names will be targeted at Germany, as a bad nation, rather than Hitler, as a bad tyrant.

So, any comment? Reasonable ones please
How old are you? your take on history is filled full of flaws. Have you ever read Mein Kampf ? (My Struggle) The book were he blamed the Jew for all of his problems. He even eluded to the eradication of the Jew. Hitler was a devout Christian and thought of Jews as Christ killers. If you live in Germany now you live in a closed society about him. All I can do is feel sorry for you and wish you opened your mind to the truth about him. I am NOT Jewish by the way. But your distorted view of history required me to respond. Hitler was a bastard and I can only hope he did kill his self. It's to bad the Russians didn't get to him first.

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a
free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their
political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their
own purpose. ~ Thomas Jefferson
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