Stigmata as proof?
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27-08-2014, 09:38 AM
Stigmata as proof?
So I'll freely admit I'm not the best debator out there. Sometimes I just don't know how to respond when the debate gets convoluted and over complicated.

Anyways, I was debating my roommate on religious beliefs and he came back at me with "well how do you explain stigmata then?"

I'm a bit stumped on this. I want to lump stigmata along with "miracles": untested, unverified, and not reproducible.

However when I start looking into the " phenomina" a little deeper, I find very little from the skeptics that addresses it. What I've seen so far is that holes in the hands are in the wrong place because a crucification there would've been impractical. The stake would've been through the wrist.

The theist counter to that is his wrists could've been tied to the post and as an added pain, his hands were nailed.

I've seen comments that the wounds are never in the same place on the people who experience this thing. This rebuttle seems to ring true, but seem flimsy when made.

I guess I'm looking for y'alls help on this. I don't think its a real thing, but at the same time I don't want to just dismiss it as a hoax without exploring as to why and how the hoax is perpetuated.

To me, calling it a hoax and moving on isn't sufficient to squash the claim.
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27-08-2014, 09:40 AM
RE: Stigmata as proof?
(27-08-2014 09:38 AM)jojorumbles Wrote:  So I'll freely admit I'm not the best debator out there. Sometimes I just don't know how to respond when the debate gets convoluted and over complicated.

Anyways, I was debating my roommate on religious beliefs and he came back at me with "well how do you explain stigmata then?"

I'm a bit stumped on this. I want to lump stigmata along with "miracles": untested, unverified, and not reproducible.

However when I start looking into the " phenomina" a little deeper, I find very little from the skeptics that addresses it. What I've seen so far is that holes in the hands are in the wrong place because a crucification there would've been impractical. The stake would've been through the wrist.

The theist counter to that is his wrists could've been tied to the post and as an added pain, his hands were nailed.

I've seen comments that the wounds are never in the same place on the people who experience this thing. This rebuttle seems to ring true, but seem flimsy when made.

I guess I'm looking for y'alls help on this. I don't think its a real thing, but at the same time I don't want to just dismiss it as a hoax without exploring as to why and how the hoax is perpetuated.

To me, calling it a hoax and moving on isn't sufficient to squash the claim.

Fakery. Proven hoaxes.
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27-08-2014, 10:54 AM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2014 10:58 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Stigmata as proof?
When I was a Christian, the pastor of our church invited the infamous Lucy Rael to hold a service at our church. She manifested stigmata (blood on her palms), a feather floated down from heaven during the service. The congregation lapped this up, thought that the power of the Lord displayed itself that night.

A couple of years later, I heard one of the teenagers in our church making a snide comment about her and her alleged miracles. I didn't have to ask anyone about this, I suspected she was a fraud, I still maintained my faith, I just discounted her honesty.

As I later became distant from the Christian faith, I realized what fools they were for ever allowing a fraud like this to come near their church. The whole episode, and the rampant suspension of any iota of skepticism within the congregation or the pastor himself, left me with strong disgust of their naivete' and a strong disgust for any fly-by-night snake oil salesman selling miracles as any kind of proof of anything. As far as I'm concerned, anyone that trots out their little fraud show peddling miracles as they pass the offering bucket should have their ass hauled away to jail!

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27-08-2014, 11:56 AM
RE: Stigmata as proof?
I seem to remember on Death Machines, they said a crucifix was shaped like a capital T... With an upright set in the ground, and a removable crossbar.

I seem to remember they said the wrists were nailed to the top of the crossbar, with the palms downward.

The feet were placed either side of the upright, and a single spike was driven through the ankles.

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27-08-2014, 12:05 PM
RE: Stigmata as proof?
Quote:"well how do you explain stigmata then?"

Self-inflicted wounds by crazed religious fanatics.

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27-08-2014, 01:39 PM
RE: Stigmata as proof?
Alright.

Point #1: St. Francis of Assisi was the the first recorded case of the Stigmata in 1224. Why did it take almost 1200 years for this to appear? Some Christians could argue the rarity of this affliction, but the number of recorded cases since then severely outweighs the once in 1200 years theory. My thought, it was a publicity stunt to elevate the Catholic orders that he had started in status. Subsequent cases could be attributed to copycats, the mind causing wounds to manifest in the highly devout (if you are inclined to believe that the mind is powerful enough to manifest wounds), and mental illness (self-inflicted wounds that sometimes people don't remember inflicting).

Point #2: What are the numbers of people who are not Christian that claim to have the wounds of the Stigmata. Of course they would not call them Stigmata, but undoubtedly a Christian would see it as such. In my research on the subject, the number is very few to almost none. It is almost always a devout Christian that suffers from these wounds.

Point #3: To my knowledge there has never been a reported case of full Stigmata, meaning all seven wounds present on the body. This to me seems to be a selective answer as opposed to what is really happening.

I hope this helps at least a little bit. Consider the first case, consider what wounds are manifested (and how deep), consider the person with the claim, consider what they have to gain by it, and 99.9% of the time it can be easily dismissed as a hoax. The other 0.1% might take a slight effort to disprove.

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27-08-2014, 01:42 PM
RE: Stigmata as proof?
(27-08-2014 09:38 AM)jojorumbles Wrote:  "well how do you explain stigmata then?"

I'm a bit stumped on this. I want to lump stigmata along with "miracles": untested, unverified, and not reproducible.

To me, calling it a hoax and moving on isn't sufficient to squash the claim.
What is the claim exactly?

That god did it?

Where is their proof that god did it?

Stating "we don't know how this could occur naturally therefore God did it" isn't proof of anything other than ignorance and a willingness to make unsupported conclusions and a willingness to believe in exceptional things (e.g. magic, supernatural beings) without exceptional evidence.
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27-08-2014, 04:02 PM
RE: Stigmata as proof?
I always wonder why people don't get the stigmata on their feet? Jesus was nailed through the ankle bones too. So why is it always the hands!? Is because they would have to do a fake limp which would impede their movements? Curious that it's always on the hands. Hummmm. Consider Dodgy

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27-08-2014, 04:19 PM
RE: Stigmata as proof?
Don't know much about the subject myself, I will have to do some research. As far as the cross thing goes, yes! They would have had to put the nails in the wrists, otherwise he would had fallen off the cross. Wasting both nail and rope on the same limb would be pointless. I think it is most possible this ( assuming this jesus character existed and this event happened) That they would have used the wrist. The hand does not need to be the palms.

As far as that other stuff that I read so far. It just sounds like a bunch of hooey to me really. A pain shooting in the palms or feet being something to do with a 2000 year old dead guy? Please! There are plenty of medical reasons for pains like this. There are more bones in the feet and hands and muscles there then most of your other body parts. A plethora of things from every day life can go wrong there. I get pain in my palms all the time from working. They feel really sore and stiff, doesn't mean it has to do with anything with a sky fairy.


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27-08-2014, 04:51 PM
RE: Stigmata as proof?
(27-08-2014 04:02 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I always wonder why people don't get the stigmata on their feet? Jesus was nailed through the ankle bones too. So why is it always the hands!? Is because they would have to do a fake limp which would impede their movements? Curious that it's always on the hands. Hummmm. Consider Dodgy

If he was crucified he was nailed through the wrists. Why is it the hand wounds are always in the wrong place ? Weeping

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