Still Paying For God's Error
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24-01-2015, 02:56 AM
RE: Still Paying For God's Error
OT God didn't do hell, he just killed everybody and called it a day.
NT God has a hell for only two peeps, his right hand man and his son, cause that's how he rolls.
If this is an actual question, you should sort your scripture from your apocrypha from your fan fiction. Tongue

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24-01-2015, 08:17 AM
RE: Still Paying For God's Error
In case any of that was directed at me, HoC: I didn't say "Hell" but "Heaven" as per Q's claim. The OT god didn't do heaven either for the average joe as far as I am aware either Wink His flood victims would presumably have been left to rot rather than taken to a better or a worse place.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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24-01-2015, 08:26 AM
RE: Still Paying For God's Error
(24-01-2015 08:17 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  In case any of that was directed at me, HoC: I didn't say "Hell" but "Heaven" as per Q's claim. The OT god didn't do heaven either for the average joe as far as I am aware either Wink His flood victims would presumably have been left to rot rather than taken to a better or a worse place.

Nah, to the OP. I kan quotes and stuff. Big Grin

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24-01-2015, 09:20 AM
RE: Still Paying For God's Error
(23-01-2015 01:09 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(17-01-2015 03:28 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  After that flood that god immediately afterward regretted doing, the one that killed everybody, did a contrite god pull all those sodden souls out of the hell they'd been cast into, or are they all still sizzling in the flames, paying for eternity for a mistake they didn't make? Perhaps it's time to take up a collection to get those souls out of there, since the responsible party has so far proven to be obscenely irresponsible. Like a politician, mouthing "I take full responsibility" without actually suffering consequences.

Has this point ever been raised by any clergy?

Indeed it has. And then some who questioned left the clergy.

The issues I see are 1) assumptions that most of those souls went to Hell, when I think many in the Flood went to Heaven, maybe even most and 2) if we look at the deaths alone, let alone diving post-mortem judgment, you are equating a flood, a natural occurrence, with genocide. Is a hurricane genocide? A forest fire? Old age? Cancer?

I thought Jews didn't have a heaven or hell...
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27-01-2015, 11:24 AM
RE: Still Paying For God's Error
(23-01-2015 01:24 PM)Mr. Boston Wrote:  
(23-01-2015 01:09 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Indeed it has. And then some who questioned left the clergy.

The issues I see are 1) assumptions that most of those souls went to Hell, when I think many in the Flood went to Heaven, maybe even most and 2) if we look at the deaths alone, let alone diving post-mortem judgment, you are equating a flood, a natural occurrence, with genocide. Is a hurricane genocide? A forest fire? Old age? Cancer?

The difference is that the Biblical flood was represented as explicitly being God's will - he was trying to wipe the slate clean and start life on the planet over again. People of faith today may argue that this hurricane or that tsunami are God's wrath, or at least that he allows them to happen as part of his unseen plan. Working in "mysterious ways," etc. That's a lot different than a deliberate attempt on the part of the deity to wipe out all of mankind with a single world-wide flood. If that's not genocide what is? And if they had so angered God as to cause him to try and hit the reset button on earthly life, why would we assume ANY of them, from people to chipmunks, went to Heaven?

The thrust of what you wrote, to my understanding, is this:

"And if they had so angered God as to cause him to try and hit the reset button on earthly life, why would we assume ANY of them, from people to chipmunks, went to Heaven?"

It's because I know other scriptures on who goes to heaven and how people may get there. Further, just like you punish children or employees you direct not just for justice or mere spite, but to correct and train them, you ought to think of a merciful God who is correcting via the Flood. The Flood wasn't a thermonuclear attack and also Noah had much time to preach judgment, specifically a flood, to the people of his time. If you heard specifically of a catastrophic flood and then saw it beginning to build you might well trust God then and there for salvation.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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27-01-2015, 11:36 AM
RE: Still Paying For God's Error
(27-01-2015 11:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(23-01-2015 01:24 PM)Mr. Boston Wrote:  The difference is that the Biblical flood was represented as explicitly being God's will - he was trying to wipe the slate clean and start life on the planet over again. People of faith today may argue that this hurricane or that tsunami are God's wrath, or at least that he allows them to happen as part of his unseen plan. Working in "mysterious ways," etc. That's a lot different than a deliberate attempt on the part of the deity to wipe out all of mankind with a single world-wide flood. If that's not genocide what is? And if they had so angered God as to cause him to try and hit the reset button on earthly life, why would we assume ANY of them, from people to chipmunks, went to Heaven?

The thrust of what you wrote, to my understanding, is this:

"And if they had so angered God as to cause him to try and hit the reset button on earthly life, why would we assume ANY of them, from people to chipmunks, went to Heaven?"

It's because I know other scriptures on who goes to heaven and how people may get there. Further, just like you punish children or employees you direct not just for justice or mere spite, but to correct and train them, you ought to think of a merciful God who is correcting via the Flood. The Flood wasn't a thermonuclear attack and also Noah had much time to preach judgment, specifically a flood, to the people of his time. If you heard specifically of a catastrophic flood and then saw it beginning to build you might well trust God then and there for salvation.

There are now other depictions of going to Heaven.. the concept which didn't exist in the story from the time of their deluging... what would those be? I thought they mainly revolved around believing in Jesus or doing good deeds by God, or asking for forgiveness(other concepts that didn't actually exist to them at the time)

If God thought they were capable of the ones not involving Jesus, it doesn't seem to match his motives for killing them. The same applies to his other like situations like destroying Sodom.

But you think these people would of asked for salvation as they were about the be drowned and God was fine with that, and it makes it a just action since these people are going to heaven then? Even though the motive of this was completely unnecessarily and all of these actions could of been just told as a lie in a story and nobody had to convert in the turmoils of fear. It's just an interpretation of a limited god creating loopholes to his own actions that you want to explain.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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27-01-2015, 11:43 AM
RE: Still Paying For God's Error
(24-01-2015 02:56 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  ... OT God didn't do hell, he just killed everybody and called it a day.

Did he rest after 6 days of straight killing? Have to look that up. Anyway, this raises another point: Can anyone be killed at all, even by an OT god? Most religions posit an eternal soul, which either takes up residence in paradise or not, but nonetheless persists. Sort of like conservation of energy, metaphorically.

So where did all those demolished OT corpses dispatch their souls to?

Or were those souls truly erased?
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27-01-2015, 12:27 PM
RE: Still Paying For God's Error
(27-01-2015 11:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's because I know other scriptures on who goes to heaven and how people may get there. Further, just like you punish children or employees you direct not just for justice or mere spite, but to correct and train them, you ought to think of a merciful God who is correcting via the Flood. The Flood wasn't a thermonuclear attack and also Noah had much time to preach judgment, specifically a flood, to the people of his time. If you heard specifically of a catastrophic flood and then saw it beginning to build you might well trust God then and there for salvation.

So you once again have the inside track on the rules. I love how absolutely delusional your metaphors are, and how you think they will make your point to a bunch of sane rational folks. Should I start filling a bathtub when some employees or my children need to be taught a lesson? If that does not scare them into changing their mindset should I dunk their heads below the water's surface until they pay the ultimate price for the sake of "correctness"?

Oh, and you refer to this act and your fantasy father figure as having mercy. What a demented and sick line of thinking! I would have so much more respect for theists if they just recognize an evil act when they read it. The more you defend this crap, the more twisted and morally bankrupt you become.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
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27-01-2015, 12:31 PM
RE: Still Paying For God's Error
Question for you Q:

What would you think of a guy down the street who uses drowning in the bathtub as a means to correct and punish bad behaviors or thoughts with his children?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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27-01-2015, 01:02 PM
RE: Still Paying For God's Error
So drowning everyone via flood (and basically forcing them to beg for salvation) all because he nyerked up his creation again despite knowing it would happen (omniscient) is merciful?

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