Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
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11-10-2013, 10:43 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(10-10-2013 06:39 PM)PersephoneK Wrote:  Believe whatever you want to believe. You'll be in the crazy minority, but whatevs.

I would much rather be part of the crazy minority who's correct than just go along with sheep who blindly quote.

If someone has real evidence, I for one would love to see it. But I don't believe from Saul of Tarsus was anything other than a nut. And he's the one largely responsible for the early "church". My biggest evidence of this comes from the bible itself.

Did someone called Jesus exist? Maybe. Did he perform miracles? No. He was likely part of extreme Jewish sect...to be laughed at, much like the doomsday crowd today. Saul of tarsus used whispers to construct a great story. Nothing more. Facts were strongly altered so they seemed to fit...

Really to believe Jesus was any type of messiah you have to bend and twist..because according to the Jewish people he didn't even come close to what the real messiah wss supposed to do.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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11-10-2013, 11:10 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(11-10-2013 10:43 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(10-10-2013 06:39 PM)PersephoneK Wrote:  Believe whatever you want to believe. You'll be in the crazy minority, but whatevs.

I would much rather be part of the crazy minority who's correct than just go along with sheep who blindly quote.

If someone has real evidence, I for one would love to see it. But I don't believe from Saul of Tarsus was anything other than a nut. And he's the one largely responsible for the early "church". My biggest evidence of this comes from the bible itself.

Did someone called Jesus exist? Maybe. Did he perform miracles? No. He was likely part of extreme Jewish sect...to be laughed at, much like the doomsday crowd today. Saul of tarsus used whispers to construct a great story. Nothing more. Facts were strongly altered so they seemed to fit...

Really to believe Jesus was any type of messiah you have to bend and twist..because according to the Jewish people he didn't even come close to what the real messiah wss supposed to do.

There were two types of Messianic prophecies in general in the HB for a suffering servant and a Messianic King. The Jewish people were looking for the second in the light of the Roman persecutions. The issue that is sidestepped by mainline scholars is that Jesus was asked and answered about these prophecies!

Acts 1:

On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

The reason they asked the question of verse 6 is the disciples were frightened to witness and face persecution and martyrdom. Jesus had already explained about His comings and return...
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11-10-2013, 11:19 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
Comparing Carrier to Atwill is like comparing astronomer Carl Sagan to astrologer Jeanne Dixon.

Just because they are both interpreting the same information, does not mean their interpretations have equal merit.

Carrier is an expert in his field with a Ph.D from Colombia in ancient history and plenty of work to back it up. Atwill is a dot com millionaire with a wild imagination.

Carrier has legitimate reasons for questioning the existence of a historical Jesus. Atwill... not so much.
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11-10-2013, 11:34 AM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2013 01:25 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(11-10-2013 11:19 AM)Simon Moon Wrote:  Carrier has legitimate reasons for questioning the existence of a historical Jesus. Atwill... not so much.

To be fair, questioning the existence of Jesus is a legitimate idea for anyone to contemplate. As for evaluating the available evidence and applying logic and reasoning to sum it up with a plausible and sound theory? Carrier has the chops, Atwill... not so much.

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11-10-2013, 01:20 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(11-10-2013 11:10 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(11-10-2013 10:43 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I would much rather be part of the crazy minority who's correct than just go along with sheep who blindly quote.

If someone has real evidence, I for one would love to see it. But I don't believe from Saul of Tarsus was anything other than a nut. And he's the one largely responsible for the early "church". My biggest evidence of this comes from the bible itself.

Did someone called Jesus exist? Maybe. Did he perform miracles? No. He was likely part of extreme Jewish sect...to be laughed at, much like the doomsday crowd today. Saul of tarsus used whispers to construct a great story. Nothing more. Facts were strongly altered so they seemed to fit...

Really to believe Jesus was any type of messiah you have to bend and twist..because according to the Jewish people he didn't even come close to what the real messiah wss supposed to do.

There were two types of Messianic prophecies in general in the HB for a suffering servant and a Messianic King. The Jewish people were looking for the second in the light of the Roman persecutions. The issue that is sidestepped by mainline scholars is that Jesus was asked and answered about these prophecies!

Acts 1:

On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

The reason they asked the question of verse 6 is the disciples were frightened to witness and face persecution and martyrdom. Jesus had already explained about His comings and return...

And I call bullshit on that. There were very specific things the messiah was supposed to do. Jebus didn't fulfill any of them.

Of course they wrote that into their story. It's a flaw in the plot. A huge gaping hole.

Shoo fly!


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11-10-2013, 01:47 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(11-10-2013 01:20 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(11-10-2013 11:10 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  SNIP

And I call bullshit on that. There were very specific things the messiah was supposed to do. Jebus didn't fulfill any of them.

Of course they wrote that into their story. It's a flaw in the plot. A huge gaping hole.

Shoo fly!

Lord at this time are you going to restore the kingdom of Israel?

HA HA! No. And no time in the next two thousand years, either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuQ9fk2UeT4

Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're an incredible slouch.

Martin Luther was the "father" of two movements - The Reformation and Nazism.
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11-10-2013, 02:03 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(11-10-2013 01:47 PM)Skippy538 Wrote:  Lord at this time are you going to restore the kingdom of Israel?

HA HA! No. And no time in the next two thousand years, either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuQ9fk2UeT4

This is why we can't have nice things Tongue


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11-10-2013, 02:34 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(11-10-2013 01:20 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(11-10-2013 11:10 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  There were two types of Messianic prophecies in general in the HB for a suffering servant and a Messianic King. The Jewish people were looking for the second in the light of the Roman persecutions. The issue that is sidestepped by mainline scholars is that Jesus was asked and answered about these prophecies!

Acts 1:

On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

The reason they asked the question of verse 6 is the disciples were frightened to witness and face persecution and martyrdom. Jesus had already explained about His comings and return...

And I call bullshit on that. There were very specific things the messiah was supposed to do. Jebus didn't fulfill any of them.

Of course they wrote that into their story. It's a flaw in the plot. A huge gaping hole.

Shoo fly!

There were hundreds of things the Messiah would do/did. The problem you are experiencing and the disciples experienced is that the same Messiah would be an eternal leader and die for sin. Jesus fulfilled hundreds of prophecies about Himself and also parsed His own prophecy...

And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17 And the [e]book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the [f]book and found the place where it was written,


18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today [b]this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Jesus parsed the verse by reading aloud:

"To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord" but stopped the quotation from Isaiah which continues, "And the day of vengeance of our God..."

He gave indications that the church age would last between the Messiah's death and resurrection and the Messiah's return.

If Jesus did all/both halves of the prophecies, armageddon would have already happened and we'd never have been born...
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11-10-2013, 02:36 PM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2013 02:40 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
This will be a bit long for Persephonek, but it's pretty interesting for anyone who is wondering about Paul's (the creator of Christianity) relationship with the family and disciples of Jesus...

"How did Paul get on with Yeshua’s disciples and family? Let’s turn to Galatians:

“Then god who had specially chosen me while I was still in my mother’s womb, called me through his grace and chose to reveal his son in me, so that I might preach the Good News about him to the pagans. I did not stop to discuss this with any human being nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were already apostles before me, but I went off to Arabia at once and later went straight back from there to Damascus. Even when after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and stayed with him for fifteen days, I did not see any of the other apostles; I only saw James, the brother of the Lord, and I swear before God that what I have just written is the literal truth” (Gal. 1:15–20, NJB.)

Paul was bragging about the fact that his personal God, a character he had a special contact with, was the source of his ideas. That may have impressed naïve people two thousand years ago, but it shouldn’t impress today’s rationalists who can read the accounts of hundreds of people, some of them mentally unwell, who claim they’ve talked to God.

After having the Son of God revealed to him, Paul more or less snubbed Yeshua’s family and supporters by shooting off to Arabia for three years. If he’d suddenly “seen the light” and become a believer in Yeshua, surely he would have jolted to Jerusalem to meet James, the son of God’s half brother, and Peter and Mary. Surely he would’ve been anxious to meet the other Mary, Yeshua’s mum, the mother of God! Apparently not! Something more important enticed him to Arabia.

Three years later, he visited Jerusalem again, but still didn’t meet Yeshua’s family or disciples, except for James and Peter.

The Gospel stories are sadly short of genuine historical facts about Jesus. Things could’ve been different. Paul, who was educated and literate, could’ve saved much of the painstaking guesswork of historians over the last three hundred years ( Jesus’ historicity has only been seriously studied in this time) by jotting down some facts as related by his family and disciples. Paul should have outshone the Gospels and made them redundant. He didn’t. He only wrote about things he thought were important: his own Christ, and his own ethics.

I suspect this wasn’t a deliberate omission on Paul’s part; he was obviously totally unaware that people in the future might be interested in Yeshua. Interestingly, the author of the epistle of James, who may have been Jesus’ brother, also neglected to document a single fact about Jesus. Neither Paul or James knew Jesus was going to become a hero-figure…because the gospels hadn’t been written yet.

At the so-called “Jerusalem council,” in or about 49 CE, James convened a meeting to discuss tactics for promoting the group’s beliefs. 2 Galatians, written by Paul, describes this meeting. It’s a truly enlightening page of the Bible:

“It was not until fourteen years had passed that I went up to Jerusalem again. I went with Barnabas and took Titus with me. I went there as a result of a revelation, and privately I laid before the leading men the Good News as I proclaim it among the pagans; I did so for fear the course I was adopting or had already adopted would not be allowed. And what happened? Even though Titus who had come with me is a Greek, he was not obliged to be circumcised. The question came up only because some who do not really belong to the brotherhood have furtively crept in to spy on the liberty we enjoy in Jesus Christ, and want to reduce us all to slavery. I was so determined to safeguard for you the true meaning of the Good News, that I refused even out of deference to yield to such people for one moment. As a result, these people who are acknowledged leaders—not that their importance matters much to me, since God has no favorites—these leaders, as I say, had nothing to add to the Good News as I preach it. On the contrary, they recognized I had been commissioned to preach the Good News to the uncircumcised just as Peter had been commissioned to preach it to the circumcised. The same person whose action had made Peter the apostle of the circumcised had given me a similar mission to the pagans. So James, Cephas and John, these leaders, these pillars, shook hands with Barnabas and me as a sign of partnership: we were to go to the pagans and they to the circumcised. The only thing they insisted on was that we should remember to help the poor, as indeed I was anxious to do. When Cephas came to Antioch, however, I opposed him to his face, since he was manifestly in the wrong. His custom had been to eat with the pagans, but after certain friends of James arrived he stopped doing this and kept away from them altogether for fear of the group that insisted on circumcision. The other Jews joined him in this pretence, and even Barnabas felt himself obliged to copy their behavior. When I saw they were not respecting the true meaning of the Good News, I said to Cephas in front of everyone, ‘In spite of being a Jew, you live like the pagans and not like the Jews, so you have no right to make the pagans copy Jewish ways.’” (Gal. 2:1–15 JB.)

Each sentence reveals a facet of a very strained relationship. Paul was clearly intimidated by James,’ John’s and Peter’s authority. He referred to them as “Pillars,” and “leading men,” and was well aware they mightn’t accept his proclamation of “Good News” as preached to gentiles:
“I laid before the leading men the Good News as I proclaim it among the pagans; I did so for fear the course I was adopting or had already adopted would not be allowed.”

What’s more, he barely concealed the fact he begrudged their authority:
“Not that their importance matters much to me.” Can anyone imagine him writing that about someone (James) he thought was the half brother of the son of God? He quite clearly regarded them as competition:
“I was so determined to safeguard for you the true meaning of the Good News, that I refused even out of deference to yield to such people for one moment.”

Paul mistrusted them. They didn’t
“belong to the brotherhood.” He accused them of spying on
“the liberty we enjoy in Christ Jesus.” He said they had
“nothing to add to the Good News I preach.” He believed they
“want to reduce us all to slavery.” He thought that the
“good news” he, and only he, preached, entitled people to be part of his brotherhood.
He thought he was freeing people from the
“slavery” of the Judaic Law.

Then, he and Peter, allegedly stalwarts of the fledgling Christian movement (who the Vatican claim founded a Christian church in Rome together,) bickered with each other. Paul claimed (probably quite correctly) that Peter didn’t respect his
“good news.” He claimed he publically challenged Peter directly by accusing him of hypocrisy.

What an intriguing snippet of scripture! Paul, the first founder of Christianity, was personally and philosophically at odds with Jesus’ brother and disciples! He was angry and frustrated that they’d been undermining him, and he didn’t hold back his vindictive retort. Why the churlish, hostile attitude? Weren’t they all preaching the same message? The reason for his antagonism becomes clear when we gain a deeper understanding of Paul’s plan ... (I won't post that now...it's too long)
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11-10-2013, 02:40 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(11-10-2013 02:34 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(11-10-2013 01:20 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I call bullshit on that. There were very specific things the messiah was supposed to do. Jebus didn't fulfill any of them.

Of course they wrote that into their story. It's a flaw in the plot. A huge gaping hole.

Shoo fly!

There were hundreds of things the Messiah would do/did. The problem you are experiencing and the disciples experienced is that the same Messiah would be an eternal leader and die for sin. Jesus fulfilled hundreds of prophecies about Himself and also parsed His own prophecy...

And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17 And the [e]book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the [f]book and found the place where it was written,


18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Jesus parsed the verse by reading aloud:

"To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord" but stopped the quotation from Isaiah which continues, "And the day of vengeance of our God..."

He gave indications that the church age would last between the Messiah's death and resurrection and the Messiah's return.

If Jesus did all/both halves of the prophecies, armageddon would have already happened and we'd never have been born...

No, the story was fitted and contorted to seem like it could fit and even then some of the prophesy because the big things, like stopping all war and ending diseases (just to name a couple) were dismal fails.

Words he allegedly spoke were only added to give more credence to the overall story and rarely fit the true context.

Again,
Shoo fly.


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