Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
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11-10-2013, 02:51 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(11-10-2013 02:34 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(11-10-2013 01:20 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I call bullshit on that. There were very specific things the messiah was supposed to do. Jebus didn't fulfill any of them.

Of course they wrote that into their story. It's a flaw in the plot. A huge gaping hole.

Shoo fly!

There were hundreds of things the Messiah would do/did. The problem you are experiencing and the disciples experienced is that the same Messiah would be an eternal leader and die for sin. Jesus fulfilled hundreds of prophecies about Himself and also parsed His own prophecy...

And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17 And the [e]book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the [f]book and found the place where it was written,


18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Jesus parsed the verse by reading aloud:

"To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord" but stopped the quotation from Isaiah which continues, "And the day of vengeance of our God..."

He gave indications that the church age would last between the Messiah's death and resurrection and the Messiah's return.

If Jesus did all/both halves of the prophecies, armageddon would have already happened and we'd never have been born...

RE
"Jesus fulfilled hundreds of prophecies about Himself"

Of course he fulfils some prophecies. That's why he exists.
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11-10-2013, 02:56 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
Mark,

When does your book come out?

Can't wait to read it!


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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11-10-2013, 03:02 PM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2013 03:17 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(11-10-2013 02:56 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Mark,

When does your book come out?

Can't wait to read it!

That's very kind of you. Sometime in next few months. "Create space" , the publishing arm of Amazon have got the finished script and are getting it ready.
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11-10-2013, 03:08 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(11-10-2013 03:02 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(11-10-2013 02:56 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Mark,

When does your book come out?

Can't wait to read it!

That's very kind of you. Sometime in next few months. "Create space" , the publishing arm of Amazon have got and are getting it ready.

Oh how exciting! You or someone will post the details when it happens, i hope!

Really, really excited to read it. Smile


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11-10-2013, 03:08 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(11-10-2013 02:40 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(11-10-2013 02:34 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  There were hundreds of things the Messiah would do/did. The problem you are experiencing and the disciples experienced is that the same Messiah would be an eternal leader and die for sin. Jesus fulfilled hundreds of prophecies about Himself and also parsed His own prophecy...

And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17 And the [e]book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the [f]book and found the place where it was written,


18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

20 And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Jesus parsed the verse by reading aloud:

"To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord" but stopped the quotation from Isaiah which continues, "And the day of vengeance of our God..."

He gave indications that the church age would last between the Messiah's death and resurrection and the Messiah's return.

If Jesus did all/both halves of the prophecies, armageddon would have already happened and we'd never have been born...

No, the story was fitted and contorted to seem like it could fit and even then some of the prophesy because the big things, like stopping all war and ending diseases (just to name a couple) were dismal fails.

Words he allegedly spoke were only added to give more credence to the overall story and rarely fit the true context.

Again,
Shoo fly.

Well said MSBB!

I'll elaborate...(hope this ain't a "tome")...

Devout Jews despised Paul and rejected his ramblings. The idea that their mysterious, perfect, one and only God could be incarnated in a Christ was completely foreign to them. They refused to believe that their God could die, or that a Christ’s death somehow addressed a primordial, sinful nature of humankind. For them the kingdom of God promised in scripture wasn’t in heaven, but on earth. Their messiah was never a savior of souls, but was to be a flesh and blood leader of the Jews. He was to herald in a glorious age in which Israel ruled and brought pagans under the glory of their god, Yahweh. He was to build the Temple (Ezek. 37:26–28,) gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isa. 43:5–6,) and bring an end to Roman rule. He was supposed to stop all exploitation, corruption, famine, disease, and war. Paul’s fictional Christ had done none of this!

Paul claimed:
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Gal. 2;16, KJV,) and
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law” (Gal. 3:13, KJV,) and
“Before faith came, we were allowed no freedom by the Law; we were being looked after till faith was revealed. The law was to be our guardian until the Christ came and we could be justified by faith. Now that that time has come we are no longer under that guardian, and you are, all of you, sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. All baptized in Christ, you have all clothed yourself in Christ, and there are no more distinctions between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, but all of you are one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal. 3:23–28, NJB.)

Traditional Jews didn’t think this. They wouldn’t be Jewish if they did. They believed - and still do - that the way to find favor with God was to obey “the Law” - that is, the Torah, as taught by Moses. There’s no mention in their scriptures of an end to the covenant God made with their ancestors on Mount Sinai. Jews regarded the Law as a gift from their God, not a curse, or an imposition on freedom. Why would they give up centuries of tradition to believe Paul? They knew there was no such thing as a “new covenant,” other than in Paul’s overly active imagination.

Imagine a Branch Davidian grabbing a microphone during a catholic mass at the Vatican and proclaiming that David Koresh was the son of God. Paul was a first century Branch Davidian.

Paul had an ambivalent attitude to Jewish scripture, which varied with the audience he was writing to. At times he interpreted it to justify his own ideas, such as when writing to “Hellenized” Jews in the diaspora. Yet when writing to gentiles he claimed large parts of scripture were redundant.

Yeshua had died over a decade before Paul appeared on the scene, and I think would’ve been perplexed and offended by the idea that his death could somehow give Gentiles a ticket to heaven. He would’ve cursed Romans (who did, after all, nail him to a cross) with his dying breath, not imagine that his God—whom he would never have thought of as his temporal sire—would grant them a place in heaven!

Jesus said,
“Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish them but complete them. I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved” (Matt. 5:17–18 JB.) Paul and Jesus contradicted each other! So much for Biblical infallibility!

Many people today insist that Jesus came to do away with the Jewish Law. They’re not considering Jesus’ words, but Paul’s (or Paul’s proponents like Luther or Calvin.)
Jews believed God dwelt in the temple, in Jerusalem, Israel’s capital. Paul made a cavalier dismissal of the importance of Israel by suggesting that the Temple wasn’t the only place god resided. He said all believers become a temple for God:
“And that is what we are—the temple of the living God" (2 Cor. 6:15, NJB) and
“Didn’t you realize that you were God’s Temple” (1 Cor. 3:16 JB.) He was trying to expand God’s seat of power out of Jerusalem and into the whole known world. Yet for most first century Jews this denied the geographical pivot of Judaism.

Jews thought they were Abraham’s descendants and, therefore, a nation of God’s special people. Yet Paul claimed:
"Those therefore who rely on faith receive the same blessing as Abraham, the man of faith." (Gal. 3:9, NJB,) and
“Merely by belonging to Christ you are the posterity of Abraham, the heirs he was promised” (Gal. 3:29, NJB.) He was asserting that believing gentiles should consider themselves God’s chosen. He was trying to make gentiles feel that they too were special, and weaken the patriotic fervor of Jews by downplaying their exclusivity.
Throughout Paul’s travels, he was initially welcome in the synagogues because he masqueraded as a traditional Jew, but after Jews heard what he had to say, he was rejected, sometimes even beaten and pelted with rocks; a repetitive pattern portrayed in Acts. As Paul was probably a Jew, his fellow Jews must have imagined he was upsetting their God, and the whole Jewish community would suffer as a consequence. Is it any wonder they physically attacked him?

In the decades Paul was preaching, the Nazarenes were expanding into a significant force under the leadership of James in Jerusalem. They also enjoyed a strong membership among Jews throughout the empire. They definitely didn’t preach the divinity of Christ, nor intend to start a new religion. Paul, when he wasn’t pretending to be one of them, considered them competitors. He got very upset when he encountered rival missionaries, who were probably Nazarene, and complained bitterly about them hijacking “his” converts. He cursed them, using the undeniable truth of his own gospel as justification:
“I am astonished at the promptness with which you have turned away from the one who called you and have decided to follow a different version of the Good News. Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some trouble makers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one that we have already preached to you, whether it be ourselves or an angel from heaven, he is condemned” (Gal. 1:6–9, NJB.) He sounds like an upset child whose best friend has gone off to play with someone else. It’s ironic that Paul was accusing his adversaries of the very thing he was guilty of - preaching a fabrication!

The two faced Paul probably tried to ingratiate himself with the Nazarenes when in their company, but they became implacably opposed to him, as verified by the verbal confrontation described in Galatians chapter two, and the adamantly anti-Pauline assertions in James’ letter.

Paul knew he wasn’t a popular figure amongst traditional Jews. In his letter to the Romans he expressed his nervousness that the Nazarenes in Jerusalem might reject him, which, if the story in Acts is true, is precisely what they did. James summoned Paul to Jerusalem when it became apparent Paul was preaching against the Torah, and sent him to the temple to be purified and prove he was still a true Jew (see Acts 21,) which led to Paul’s so called arrest and eventual transportation to Rome. James, Jesus’ brother, effectively terminated Paul’s missionary career!

When Paul was forced to reveal that he was a Roman citizen, his cover was well and truly blown. A Roman citizen couldn’t be a Nazarene. According to Acts, the Romans had to dedicate considerable resources (500 soldiers) to protect him from angry Jews. They were looking after one of their own.

Paul wasn’t deterred. He kept writing letters from Rome, and to the best of our knowledge, never gave up.

Paul’s modern-day reputation as an honest evangelist, and the implication he taught Yeshua’s message, have no foundation, yet they’ve become part of Christian tradition, largely because of Acts. In the early second century, Paul’s legitimacy must have lacked credibility, so the author of Acts had Jesus’ ghost appear to Paul on the road to Damascus, which was pure fiction, as was the story of Paul becoming good friends with Jesus’ disciples. The author even tried to shore up Paul’s status by having him perform a number of miracles. Yet Paul failed to mention Jesus’ ghost or his own miracle working prowess; impossible omissions. Paul revealed many personality traits in his letters, but genuine modesty definitely wasn’t one of them.
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11-10-2013, 03:27 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(11-10-2013 03:08 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(11-10-2013 02:40 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  No, the story was fitted and contorted to seem like it could fit and even then some of the prophesy because the big things, like stopping all war and ending diseases (just to name a couple) were dismal fails.

Words he allegedly spoke were only added to give more credence to the overall story and rarely fit the true context.

Again,
Shoo fly.

Well said MSBB!

I'll elaborate...(hope this ain't a "tome")...

Devout Jews despised Paul and rejected his ramblings. The idea that their mysterious, perfect, one and only God could be incarnated in a Christ was completely foreign to them. They refused to believe that their God could die, or that a Christ’s death somehow addressed a primordial, sinful nature of humankind. For them the kingdom of God promised in scripture wasn’t in heaven, but on earth. Their messiah was never a savior of souls, but was to be a flesh and blood leader of the Jews. He was to herald in a glorious age in which Israel ruled and brought pagans under the glory of their god, Yahweh. He was to build the Temple (Ezek. 37:26–28,) gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isa. 43:5–6,) and bring an end to Roman rule. He was supposed to stop all exploitation, corruption, famine, disease, and war. Paul’s fictional Christ had done none of this!

Paul claimed:
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Gal. 2;16, KJV,) and
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law” (Gal. 3:13, KJV,) and
“Before faith came, we were allowed no freedom by the Law; we were being looked after till faith was revealed. The law was to be our guardian until the Christ came and we could be justified by faith. Now that that time has come we are no longer under that guardian, and you are, all of you, sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. All baptized in Christ, you have all clothed yourself in Christ, and there are no more distinctions between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, but all of you are one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal. 3:23–28, NJB.)

Traditional Jews didn’t think this. They wouldn’t be Jewish if they did. They believed - and still do - that the way to find favor with God was to obey “the Law” - that is, the Torah, as taught by Moses. There’s no mention in their scriptures of an end to the covenant God made with their ancestors on Mount Sinai. Jews regarded the Law as a gift from their God, not a curse, or an imposition on freedom. Why would they give up centuries of tradition to believe Paul? They knew there was no such thing as a “new covenant,” other than in Paul’s overly active imagination.

Imagine a Branch Davidian grabbing a microphone during a catholic mass at the Vatican and proclaiming that David Koresh was the son of God. Paul was a first century Branch Davidian.

Paul had an ambivalent attitude to Jewish scripture, which varied with the audience he was writing to. At times he interpreted it to justify his own ideas, such as when writing to “Hellenized” Jews in the diaspora. Yet when writing to gentiles he claimed large parts of scripture were redundant.

Yeshua had died over a decade before Paul appeared on the scene, and I think would’ve been perplexed and offended by the idea that his death could somehow give Gentiles a ticket to heaven. He would’ve cursed Romans (who did, after all, nail him to a cross) with his dying breath, not imagine that his God—whom he would never have thought of as his temporal sire—would grant them a place in heaven!

Jesus said,
“Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish them but complete them. I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved” (Matt. 5:17–18 JB.) Paul and Jesus contradicted each other! So much for Biblical infallibility!

Many people today insist that Jesus came to do away with the Jewish Law. They’re not considering Jesus’ words, but Paul’s (or Paul’s proponents like Luther or Calvin.)
Jews believed God dwelt in the temple, in Jerusalem, Israel’s capital. Paul made a cavalier dismissal of the importance of Israel by suggesting that the Temple wasn’t the only place god resided. He said all believers become a temple for God:
“And that is what we are—the temple of the living God" (2 Cor. 6:15, NJB) and
“Didn’t you realize that you were God’s Temple” (1 Cor. 3:16 JB.) He was trying to expand God’s seat of power out of Jerusalem and into the whole known world. Yet for most first century Jews this denied the geographical pivot of Judaism.

Jews thought they were Abraham’s descendants and, therefore, a nation of God’s special people. Yet Paul claimed:
"Those therefore who rely on faith receive the same blessing as Abraham, the man of faith." (Gal. 3:9, NJB,) and
“Merely by belonging to Christ you are the posterity of Abraham, the heirs he was promised” (Gal. 3:29, NJB.) He was asserting that believing gentiles should consider themselves God’s chosen. He was trying to make gentiles feel that they too were special, and weaken the patriotic fervor of Jews by downplaying their exclusivity.
Throughout Paul’s travels, he was initially welcome in the synagogues because he masqueraded as a traditional Jew, but after Jews heard what he had to say, he was rejected, sometimes even beaten and pelted with rocks; a repetitive pattern portrayed in Acts. As Paul was probably a Jew, his fellow Jews must have imagined he was upsetting their God, and the whole Jewish community would suffer as a consequence. Is it any wonder they physically attacked him?

In the decades Paul was preaching, the Nazarenes were expanding into a significant force under the leadership of James in Jerusalem. They also enjoyed a strong membership among Jews throughout the empire. They definitely didn’t preach the divinity of Christ, nor intend to start a new religion. Paul, when he wasn’t pretending to be one of them, considered them competitors. He got very upset when he encountered rival missionaries, who were probably Nazarene, and complained bitterly about them hijacking “his” converts. He cursed them, using the undeniable truth of his own gospel as justification:
“I am astonished at the promptness with which you have turned away from the one who called you and have decided to follow a different version of the Good News. Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some trouble makers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one that we have already preached to you, whether it be ourselves or an angel from heaven, he is condemned” (Gal. 1:6–9, NJB.) He sounds like an upset child whose best friend has gone off to play with someone else. It’s ironic that Paul was accusing his adversaries of the very thing he was guilty of - preaching a fabrication!

The two faced Paul probably tried to ingratiate himself with the Nazarenes when in their company, but they became implacably opposed to him, as verified by the verbal confrontation described in Galatians chapter two, and the adamantly anti-Pauline assertions in James’ letter.

Paul knew he wasn’t a popular figure amongst traditional Jews. In his letter to the Romans he expressed his nervousness that the Nazarenes in Jerusalem might reject him, which, if the story in Acts is true, is precisely what they did. James summoned Paul to Jerusalem when it became apparent Paul was preaching against the Torah, and sent him to the temple to be purified and prove he was still a true Jew (see Acts 21,) which led to Paul’s so called arrest and eventual transportation to Rome. James, Jesus’ brother, effectively terminated Paul’s missionary career!

When Paul was forced to reveal that he was a Roman citizen, his cover was well and truly blown. A Roman citizen couldn’t be a Nazarene. According to Acts, the Romans had to dedicate considerable resources (500 soldiers) to protect him from angry Jews. They were looking after one of their own.

Paul wasn’t deterred. He kept writing letters from Rome, and to the best of our knowledge, never gave up.

Paul’s modern-day reputation as an honest evangelist, and the implication he taught Yeshua’s message, have no foundation, yet they’ve become part of Christian tradition, largely because of Acts. In the early second century, Paul’s legitimacy must have lacked credibility, so the author of Acts had Jesus’ ghost appear to Paul on the road to Damascus, which was pure fiction, as was the story of Paul becoming good friends with Jesus’ disciples. The author even tried to shore up Paul’s status by having him perform a number of miracles. Yet Paul failed to mention Jesus’ ghost or his own miracle working prowess; impossible omissions. Paul revealed many personality traits in his letters, but genuine modesty definitely wasn’t one of them.

I truly wish more Christian types understood this!

I have to admit, Paul was the reason why I stopped believing in the new testament. He's partly responsible for making me an atheist. At least he got me peeling the onion.

I'll never understand why he's so revered.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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11-10-2013, 04:06 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
Just found a trailer to Atwill's talk that he's going to give...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGdRDLRZaoo

Apologies if someone has already posted this.
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11-10-2013, 09:19 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(11-10-2013 03:08 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(11-10-2013 02:40 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  No, the story was fitted and contorted to seem like it could fit and even then some of the prophesy because the big things, like stopping all war and ending diseases (just to name a couple) were dismal fails.

Words he allegedly spoke were only added to give more credence to the overall story and rarely fit the true context.

Again,
Shoo fly.

Well said MSBB!

I'll elaborate...(hope this ain't a "tome")...

Devout Jews despised Paul and rejected his ramblings. The idea that their mysterious, perfect, one and only God could be incarnated in a Christ was completely foreign to them. They refused to believe that their God could die, or that a Christ’s death somehow addressed a primordial, sinful nature of humankind. For them the kingdom of God promised in scripture wasn’t in heaven, but on earth. Their messiah was never a savior of souls, but was to be a flesh and blood leader of the Jews. He was to herald in a glorious age in which Israel ruled and brought pagans under the glory of their god, Yahweh. He was to build the Temple (Ezek. 37:26–28,) gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isa. 43:5–6,) and bring an end to Roman rule. He was supposed to stop all exploitation, corruption, famine, disease, and war. Paul’s fictional Christ had done none of this!

Paul claimed:
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Gal. 2;16, KJV,) and
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law” (Gal. 3:13, KJV,) and
“Before faith came, we were allowed no freedom by the Law; we were being looked after till faith was revealed. The law was to be our guardian until the Christ came and we could be justified by faith. Now that that time has come we are no longer under that guardian, and you are, all of you, sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. All baptized in Christ, you have all clothed yourself in Christ, and there are no more distinctions between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, but all of you are one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal. 3:23–28, NJB.)

Traditional Jews didn’t think this. They wouldn’t be Jewish if they did. They believed - and still do - that the way to find favor with God was to obey “the Law” - that is, the Torah, as taught by Moses. There’s no mention in their scriptures of an end to the covenant God made with their ancestors on Mount Sinai. Jews regarded the Law as a gift from their God, not a curse, or an imposition on freedom. Why would they give up centuries of tradition to believe Paul? They knew there was no such thing as a “new covenant,” other than in Paul’s overly active imagination.

Imagine a Branch Davidian grabbing a microphone during a catholic mass at the Vatican and proclaiming that David Koresh was the son of God. Paul was a first century Branch Davidian.

Paul had an ambivalent attitude to Jewish scripture, which varied with the audience he was writing to. At times he interpreted it to justify his own ideas, such as when writing to “Hellenized” Jews in the diaspora. Yet when writing to gentiles he claimed large parts of scripture were redundant.

Yeshua had died over a decade before Paul appeared on the scene, and I think would’ve been perplexed and offended by the idea that his death could somehow give Gentiles a ticket to heaven. He would’ve cursed Romans (who did, after all, nail him to a cross) with his dying breath, not imagine that his God—whom he would never have thought of as his temporal sire—would grant them a place in heaven!

Jesus said,
“Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish them but complete them. I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved” (Matt. 5:17–18 JB.) Paul and Jesus contradicted each other! So much for Biblical infallibility!

Many people today insist that Jesus came to do away with the Jewish Law. They’re not considering Jesus’ words, but Paul’s (or Paul’s proponents like Luther or Calvin.)
Jews believed God dwelt in the temple, in Jerusalem, Israel’s capital. Paul made a cavalier dismissal of the importance of Israel by suggesting that the Temple wasn’t the only place god resided. He said all believers become a temple for God:
“And that is what we are—the temple of the living God" (2 Cor. 6:15, NJB) and
“Didn’t you realize that you were God’s Temple” (1 Cor. 3:16 JB.) He was trying to expand God’s seat of power out of Jerusalem and into the whole known world. Yet for most first century Jews this denied the geographical pivot of Judaism.

Jews thought they were Abraham’s descendants and, therefore, a nation of God’s special people. Yet Paul claimed:
"Those therefore who rely on faith receive the same blessing as Abraham, the man of faith." (Gal. 3:9, NJB,) and
“Merely by belonging to Christ you are the posterity of Abraham, the heirs he was promised” (Gal. 3:29, NJB.) He was asserting that believing gentiles should consider themselves God’s chosen. He was trying to make gentiles feel that they too were special, and weaken the patriotic fervor of Jews by downplaying their exclusivity.
Throughout Paul’s travels, he was initially welcome in the synagogues because he masqueraded as a traditional Jew, but after Jews heard what he had to say, he was rejected, sometimes even beaten and pelted with rocks; a repetitive pattern portrayed in Acts. As Paul was probably a Jew, his fellow Jews must have imagined he was upsetting their God, and the whole Jewish community would suffer as a consequence. Is it any wonder they physically attacked him?

In the decades Paul was preaching, the Nazarenes were expanding into a significant force under the leadership of James in Jerusalem. They also enjoyed a strong membership among Jews throughout the empire. They definitely didn’t preach the divinity of Christ, nor intend to start a new religion. Paul, when he wasn’t pretending to be one of them, considered them competitors. He got very upset when he encountered rival missionaries, who were probably Nazarene, and complained bitterly about them hijacking “his” converts. He cursed them, using the undeniable truth of his own gospel as justification:
“I am astonished at the promptness with which you have turned away from the one who called you and have decided to follow a different version of the Good News. Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some trouble makers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one that we have already preached to you, whether it be ourselves or an angel from heaven, he is condemned” (Gal. 1:6–9, NJB.) He sounds like an upset child whose best friend has gone off to play with someone else. It’s ironic that Paul was accusing his adversaries of the very thing he was guilty of - preaching a fabrication!

The two faced Paul probably tried to ingratiate himself with the Nazarenes when in their company, but they became implacably opposed to him, as verified by the verbal confrontation described in Galatians chapter two, and the adamantly anti-Pauline assertions in James’ letter.

Paul knew he wasn’t a popular figure amongst traditional Jews. In his letter to the Romans he expressed his nervousness that the Nazarenes in Jerusalem might reject him, which, if the story in Acts is true, is precisely what they did. James summoned Paul to Jerusalem when it became apparent Paul was preaching against the Torah, and sent him to the temple to be purified and prove he was still a true Jew (see Acts 21,) which led to Paul’s so called arrest and eventual transportation to Rome. James, Jesus’ brother, effectively terminated Paul’s missionary career!

When Paul was forced to reveal that he was a Roman citizen, his cover was well and truly blown. A Roman citizen couldn’t be a Nazarene. According to Acts, the Romans had to dedicate considerable resources (500 soldiers) to protect him from angry Jews. They were looking after one of their own.

Paul wasn’t deterred. He kept writing letters from Rome, and to the best of our knowledge, never gave up.

Paul’s modern-day reputation as an honest evangelist, and the implication he taught Yeshua’s message, have no foundation, yet they’ve become part of Christian tradition, largely because of Acts. In the early second century, Paul’s legitimacy must have lacked credibility, so the author of Acts had Jesus’ ghost appear to Paul on the road to Damascus, which was pure fiction, as was the story of Paul becoming good friends with Jesus’ disciples. The author even tried to shore up Paul’s status by having him perform a number of miracles. Yet Paul failed to mention Jesus’ ghost or his own miracle working prowess; impossible omissions. Paul revealed many personality traits in his letters, but genuine modesty definitely wasn’t one of them.

"Preaching a fabrication." You say that like it's a bad thing...
I think ol' Paul was Jewish, at least according to him in Phil. 3 (may be just unaware of some dispute over text veracity). God, look at us, christian theology on an atheist thread. Who cares... Evil_monster
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11-10-2013, 09:32 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(11-10-2013 03:27 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(11-10-2013 03:08 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Well said MSBB!

I'll elaborate...(hope this ain't a "tome")...

Devout Jews despised Paul and rejected his ramblings. The idea that their mysterious, perfect, one and only God could be incarnated in a Christ was completely foreign to them. They refused to believe that their God could die, or that a Christ’s death somehow addressed a primordial, sinful nature of humankind. For them the kingdom of God promised in scripture wasn’t in heaven, but on earth. Their messiah was never a savior of souls, but was to be a flesh and blood leader of the Jews. He was to herald in a glorious age in which Israel ruled and brought pagans under the glory of their god, Yahweh. He was to build the Temple (Ezek. 37:26–28,) gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isa. 43:5–6,) and bring an end to Roman rule. He was supposed to stop all exploitation, corruption, famine, disease, and war. Paul’s fictional Christ had done none of this!

Paul claimed:
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Gal. 2;16, KJV,) and
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law” (Gal. 3:13, KJV,) and
“Before faith came, we were allowed no freedom by the Law; we were being looked after till faith was revealed. The law was to be our guardian until the Christ came and we could be justified by faith. Now that that time has come we are no longer under that guardian, and you are, all of you, sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. All baptized in Christ, you have all clothed yourself in Christ, and there are no more distinctions between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, but all of you are one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal. 3:23–28, NJB.)

Traditional Jews didn’t think this. They wouldn’t be Jewish if they did. They believed - and still do - that the way to find favor with God was to obey “the Law” - that is, the Torah, as taught by Moses. There’s no mention in their scriptures of an end to the covenant God made with their ancestors on Mount Sinai. Jews regarded the Law as a gift from their God, not a curse, or an imposition on freedom. Why would they give up centuries of tradition to believe Paul? They knew there was no such thing as a “new covenant,” other than in Paul’s overly active imagination.

Imagine a Branch Davidian grabbing a microphone during a catholic mass at the Vatican and proclaiming that David Koresh was the son of God. Paul was a first century Branch Davidian.

Paul had an ambivalent attitude to Jewish scripture, which varied with the audience he was writing to. At times he interpreted it to justify his own ideas, such as when writing to “Hellenized” Jews in the diaspora. Yet when writing to gentiles he claimed large parts of scripture were redundant.

Yeshua had died over a decade before Paul appeared on the scene, and I think would’ve been perplexed and offended by the idea that his death could somehow give Gentiles a ticket to heaven. He would’ve cursed Romans (who did, after all, nail him to a cross) with his dying breath, not imagine that his God—whom he would never have thought of as his temporal sire—would grant them a place in heaven!

Jesus said,
“Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish them but complete them. I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved” (Matt. 5:17–18 JB.) Paul and Jesus contradicted each other! So much for Biblical infallibility!

Many people today insist that Jesus came to do away with the Jewish Law. They’re not considering Jesus’ words, but Paul’s (or Paul’s proponents like Luther or Calvin.)
Jews believed God dwelt in the temple, in Jerusalem, Israel’s capital. Paul made a cavalier dismissal of the importance of Israel by suggesting that the Temple wasn’t the only place god resided. He said all believers become a temple for God:
“And that is what we are—the temple of the living God" (2 Cor. 6:15, NJB) and
“Didn’t you realize that you were God’s Temple” (1 Cor. 3:16 JB.) He was trying to expand God’s seat of power out of Jerusalem and into the whole known world. Yet for most first century Jews this denied the geographical pivot of Judaism.

Jews thought they were Abraham’s descendants and, therefore, a nation of God’s special people. Yet Paul claimed:
"Those therefore who rely on faith receive the same blessing as Abraham, the man of faith." (Gal. 3:9, NJB,) and
“Merely by belonging to Christ you are the posterity of Abraham, the heirs he was promised” (Gal. 3:29, NJB.) He was asserting that believing gentiles should consider themselves God’s chosen. He was trying to make gentiles feel that they too were special, and weaken the patriotic fervor of Jews by downplaying their exclusivity.
Throughout Paul’s travels, he was initially welcome in the synagogues because he masqueraded as a traditional Jew, but after Jews heard what he had to say, he was rejected, sometimes even beaten and pelted with rocks; a repetitive pattern portrayed in Acts. As Paul was probably a Jew, his fellow Jews must have imagined he was upsetting their God, and the whole Jewish community would suffer as a consequence. Is it any wonder they physically attacked him?

In the decades Paul was preaching, the Nazarenes were expanding into a significant force under the leadership of James in Jerusalem. They also enjoyed a strong membership among Jews throughout the empire. They definitely didn’t preach the divinity of Christ, nor intend to start a new religion. Paul, when he wasn’t pretending to be one of them, considered them competitors. He got very upset when he encountered rival missionaries, who were probably Nazarene, and complained bitterly about them hijacking “his” converts. He cursed them, using the undeniable truth of his own gospel as justification:
“I am astonished at the promptness with which you have turned away from the one who called you and have decided to follow a different version of the Good News. Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some trouble makers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one that we have already preached to you, whether it be ourselves or an angel from heaven, he is condemned” (Gal. 1:6–9, NJB.) He sounds like an upset child whose best friend has gone off to play with someone else. It’s ironic that Paul was accusing his adversaries of the very thing he was guilty of - preaching a fabrication!

The two faced Paul probably tried to ingratiate himself with the Nazarenes when in their company, but they became implacably opposed to him, as verified by the verbal confrontation described in Galatians chapter two, and the adamantly anti-Pauline assertions in James’ letter.

Paul knew he wasn’t a popular figure amongst traditional Jews. In his letter to the Romans he expressed his nervousness that the Nazarenes in Jerusalem might reject him, which, if the story in Acts is true, is precisely what they did. James summoned Paul to Jerusalem when it became apparent Paul was preaching against the Torah, and sent him to the temple to be purified and prove he was still a true Jew (see Acts 21,) which led to Paul’s so called arrest and eventual transportation to Rome. James, Jesus’ brother, effectively terminated Paul’s missionary career!

When Paul was forced to reveal that he was a Roman citizen, his cover was well and truly blown. A Roman citizen couldn’t be a Nazarene. According to Acts, the Romans had to dedicate considerable resources (500 soldiers) to protect him from angry Jews. They were looking after one of their own.

Paul wasn’t deterred. He kept writing letters from Rome, and to the best of our knowledge, never gave up.

Paul’s modern-day reputation as an honest evangelist, and the implication he taught Yeshua’s message, have no foundation, yet they’ve become part of Christian tradition, largely because of Acts. In the early second century, Paul’s legitimacy must have lacked credibility, so the author of Acts had Jesus’ ghost appear to Paul on the road to Damascus, which was pure fiction, as was the story of Paul becoming good friends with Jesus’ disciples. The author even tried to shore up Paul’s status by having him perform a number of miracles. Yet Paul failed to mention Jesus’ ghost or his own miracle working prowess; impossible omissions. Paul revealed many personality traits in his letters, but genuine modesty definitely wasn’t one of them.

I truly wish more Christian types understood this!

I have to admit, Paul was the reason why I stopped believing in the new testament. He's partly responsible for making me an atheist. At least he got me peeling the onion.

I'll never understand why he's so revered.

I don't know. It seemed plausible to me at the time. Could be the presentation. Because you're right. From a remove, it does look unpleasant, to say the least. I honestly don't know. I guess it's the power of brainwashing and indoctrination. It took a long time to gain any perspective on it. Man, that's a big question! I'm still pretty blown away when I meet "new testament" christians. Like that's the warm and fuzzy part. They know Yahweh is a homicidal maniac. I don't blame them for trying to avoid association with that by attending a "new testament congregation."
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12-10-2013, 01:16 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(11-10-2013 02:40 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  No, the story was fitted and contorted to seem like it could fit and even then some of the prophesy because the big things, like stopping all war and ending diseases (just to name a couple) were dismal fails.

Words he allegedly spoke were only added to give more credence to the overall story and rarely fit the true context.

Again,
Shoo fly.

And some of them aren't even that hard. Get me two fucking donkeys and I'll go fulfill me some prophesy... Drinking Beverage

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