Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
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13-10-2013, 10:43 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(13-10-2013 02:03 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I must point out something though... your blog on Atwill is totally unfair. You haven't read his book. You do not know enough about the topic to make your own judgement. You curtly dismiss his ideas based solely on the opinions of others, and that's not cool. There's nothing wrong with reporting other scholarly opinion in an article, but you must not base your own judgement solely on others' opinions.

I dismissed Atwill based on the summary of his book, and from what I read about his ideas on his own blog. My opinion is not based on the opinions of others; its based on the evidence others have shown me and my own study that are in conflict with Atwill. So you are mistaken in your assessment of what is in my brain. I just didn't think it was necessary to write a 700 page blog that shows evidence that others have already aggregated elsewhere. I provided avenues for people to seek the evidence themselves should they wish to.

"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." ~Rene Descartes.
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13-10-2013, 10:48 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(13-10-2013 02:16 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I've written a not too long blog on this here...

http://www.markfulton.org/was-christiani...nment-plot

If you are genuinely interested in the history, I suggest you read it. It doesn't mean that you have to agree with me, but I think you owe it to yourself to be open-minded.

And, by the way, Mr Atwill's extremely interesting book is available at Amazon as an e-book for only $9.99. That would be money well spent.

I am open minded. I have proven this over and over in my lifetime. What people often mean when they accuse someone of not being open minded, is that they disagree with their own opinion.

I'm open-minded and willing to change my views with evidence, but my time is not unlimited. I wish you success with your book. As for Mr. Atwill's I won't be reading it. I'd rather stick to respected sources of historical information and analysis. I'd read Carrier's work long before attempting Atwill.

"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." ~Rene Descartes.
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13-10-2013, 10:53 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(13-10-2013 02:37 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(12-10-2013 06:08 PM)PersephoneK Wrote:  Hahahahahaha! That's hilarious!

Well...you called yourself "lazy," and you admitted (and quite obviously hadn't) read the whole thread, and....you haven't read Atwill's book....so....you've created an image of yourself that you're not particularly interested in reading anything too long. You can, of course, prove me wrong....

So, you've never had a lazy moment in your entire life? Or you've never made mistakes in your life? And the level of knowledge you have now was what you were born with? I was lazy in the moment when I started reading this thread, which was already 8 pages long, and after I'd already read stuff all over the internet about the subject for several hours, so I didn't have the energy that particular evening. I come to the forum to participate in fun conversations, in a light way, not to work on obtaining a PH.D.

I would never claim to know who you are based on a few offhanded internet thread remarks, and would probably recognize that forums are not people's jobs, so I guess my threshold is a little lower here than elsewhere in my life. I made the mistake. I will remember to just silently troll from now on and not participate unless I have spent a year researching something first. Tongue

"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." ~Rene Descartes.
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13-10-2013, 09:44 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(13-10-2013 10:48 AM)PersephoneK Wrote:  
(13-10-2013 02:16 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I've written a not too long blog on this here...

http://www.markfulton.org/was-christiani...nment-plot

If you are genuinely interested in the history, I suggest you read it. It doesn't mean that you have to agree with me, but I think you owe it to yourself to be open-minded.

And, by the way, Mr Atwill's extremely interesting book is available at Amazon as an e-book for only $9.99. That would be money well spent.

I am open minded. I have proven this over and over in my lifetime. What people often mean when they accuse someone of not being open minded, is that they disagree with their own opinion.

I'm open-minded and willing to change my views with evidence, but my time is not unlimited. I wish you success with your book. As for Mr. Atwill's I won't be reading it. I'd rather stick to respected sources of historical information and analysis. I'd read Carrier's work long before attempting Atwill.

RE
"I am open minded. I have proven this over and over in my lifetime." Maybe...but you've only demonstrated your closed-mindedness here to date.

RE
"As for Mr. Atwill's I won't be reading it."
Mmmmmmmmmm. Then don't destroy your own credibility by bad-mouthing (for an entire blog) an author you haven't even read.
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13-10-2013, 09:46 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(13-10-2013 10:53 AM)PersephoneK Wrote:  
(13-10-2013 02:37 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Well...you called yourself "lazy," and you admitted (and quite obviously hadn't) read the whole thread, and....you haven't read Atwill's book....so....you've created an image of yourself that you're not particularly interested in reading anything too long. You can, of course, prove me wrong....

So, you've never had a lazy moment in your entire life? Or you've never made mistakes in your life? And the level of knowledge you have now was what you were born with? I was lazy in the moment when I started reading this thread, which was already 8 pages long, and after I'd already read stuff all over the internet about the subject for several hours, so I didn't have the energy that particular evening. I come to the forum to participate in fun conversations, in a light way, not to work on obtaining a PH.D.

I would never claim to know who you are based on a few offhanded internet thread remarks, and would probably recognize that forums are not people's jobs, so I guess my threshold is a little lower here than elsewhere in my life. I made the mistake. I will remember to just silently troll from now on and not participate unless I have spent a year researching something first. Tongue

RE
"I would never claim to know who you are based on a few offhanded internet thread remarks," AH...but you did to Mr Atwill....
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14-10-2013, 04:11 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
I've spent a few days thinking about Mr Atwill's theories and the response in the academic community to them.

The fact is that he's presenting something really quite new and different. Many of these academics are, I strongly suspect, jealous when somebody gets a whole lot of attention, particularly as Mr Atwill's theories actually invalidate a lot of their ideas.

Humans being what they are, he's bound to get a lot of shit thrown at him, even if he had 10 PhD's. I think it's childish that they have to resort to personally attacking him.

I can't prove beyond doubt that Mr Atwill is correct. All I can say is that I believe his arguments are very plausible and deserve serious consideration. I have a lot of respect for Richard carrier, in fact I really like him as a person too (we're acquaintances on Facebook), but I think he's being unfair on Atwill.

By the way, as I read Atwill's thoughts, and I have read his book at least three times, I don't think the thrust of his argument is that Jesus didn't exist, but rather that the Jesus we read about in the Gospels is propaganda. It's true he doesn't think Jesus existed, but in a sense most scholars think that too, as they all know the words of Jesus, as presented in the Gospels, are mostly nonsense. So, in a sense, it's a mute point whether an actual flesh and blood character called Jesus or Yeshua actually pranced around Palestine. I happen to think there was such a dude, Mr Atwill doesn't, Mr Carrier doesn't, and Mr Ehrman does. Yet we all think that what "he" allegedly said is manufactured nonsense.
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14-10-2013, 04:56 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
Quote:Carrier has legitimate reasons for questioning the existence of a historical Jesus. Atwill... not so much.

Atwill tries to invent facts to support his pre-determined outcome. In that sense, he is quite religious.

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14-10-2013, 07:51 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(14-10-2013 04:56 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:Carrier has legitimate reasons for questioning the existence of a historical Jesus. Atwill... not so much.

Atwill tries to invent facts to support his pre-determined outcome. In that sense, he is quite religious.

Would you care to say which facts? I'm not disagreeing with you... I'm just interested in what you're referring to.
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16-10-2013, 12:26 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(12-10-2013 01:16 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(11-10-2013 02:40 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  No, the story was fitted and contorted to seem like it could fit and even then some of the prophesy because the big things, like stopping all war and ending diseases (just to name a couple) were dismal fails.

Words he allegedly spoke were only added to give more credence to the overall story and rarely fit the true context.

Again,
Shoo fly.

And some of them aren't even that hard. Get me two fucking donkeys and I'll go fulfill me some prophesy... Drinking Beverage

Being annunciated by a forerunner is easy? Being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver? Perhaps?

Now rise from the dead.
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16-10-2013, 01:41 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(14-10-2013 04:11 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I have a lot of respect for Richard carrier, in fact I really like him as a person too (we're acquaintances on Facebook), but I think he's being unfair on Atwill.

What about Carrier's contention that Atwill is "Ellising" the Greek?

When I first encountered Caesar's Messiah, I found it to be interesting; but over time and consideration, it seemed less and less plausible. Carrier just put the finishing move on it, as far as I'm concerned.

(16-10-2013 12:26 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Now rise from the dead.

You first. Show us how it's done. Thumbsup

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