Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
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23-10-2013, 10:42 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
Lived in Galilee. Evidence?
Son of David. Evidence?
Born of a virgin. Evidence?

Prove that each of these weren't fabrications to make the Jesus story seem more miraculous.
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23-10-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(23-10-2013 10:33 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  What do you think of the Old Testament prophecy that the Jewish Messiah would be worshipped worldwide? Would that be a good example of a valid prophecy we can see fulfilled now?

By the way, according to my spell checker (who is God), it's worshiped, not worshipped - worshipped is a word only used by very nautical boys.

I've forgotten what the original two prophecies you came up with were and I can't be bothered to go back, but I wanted to know why you thought that *those* specific prophecies *were* predictions of the future, and not *later additions by an apologist*, and why you thought that they had been fulfilled.

For the prophecy you are now referencing, please provide the actual prophecy, and the reference to the relevant verses.

Making use of your summary for now, the *prediction* is that the Jewish Messiah would be worshiped worldwide.

First off, I'm ready to bet that of all the religions and fads going around the ancient world at that time, pretty much 99% of them had a prophecy along these lines for *their* chosen one.

Second, what proof is there that this prophecy was not a fabrication ?

I mean, if it's old testament then you're *interpreting* that it's about the Messiah by the use of phrases like "Son of Man" and so forth right ? You're *also* interpreting that *Jesus* mentioned in the new testament *is* in fact the Messiah referenced by that prophecy...

What of the contention that Jesus was not the Messiah, just one of the many crazies who were given credence back then, and lucked out big time on the worship front ?

So already I think there's major doubt that you can even say that the prophecy was fulfilled, unless you can satisfactorily address these points.

And *following* that, what does it mean, that a prophecy *was* fulfilled ? I know what you'd like it to mean - the Bible is inerrant and therefore the word of God etc. But all that it really tells us, *even if* it is a proper prophecy with no hanky panky involved, is that some guy from an earlier time made a correct prediction.

Hell Greeks could predict solar eclipses, I think that's much more impressive than this vague wishy washy "one day we'll be great, you'll see" stuff.

Apologies for the wall-o-text.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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23-10-2013, 02:36 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(23-10-2013 10:42 AM)DeavonReye Wrote:  Lived in Galilee. Evidence?
Son of David. Evidence?
Born of a virgin. Evidence?

Prove that each of these weren't fabrications to make the Jesus story seem more miraculous.

But you're begging the question and using a circular argument:

"PJ, I know there are documents that say these things happened. But there's no evidence outside the documents that they happened that I know of. Therefore, on that basis alone, the events must not have happened."

Using your argumentation, we can look at supernatural or natural events and dismiss them.

What is your evidence that George Washington was President of the United States? We have documents that said he was. How do we know the portraits hanging in the White House aren't fabrications?

What is your evidence that Julius Caesar existed? Mere documents and sculptures? How do we know they weren't fabricated?

You say your name is Joseph? How do we know your driver's license wasn't fabricated?

How do we know Obama was born in Hawaii? Ah, there we have it, there may be evidence he wasn't.

There are no ancient documents that say Jesus did NOT do miracles or that eyewitnesses debunked his claims. You are using a circular argument of "unlikely that anything supernatural happened" to bolster your claims. Conveniently, too, since this allows you to attack the 1% of the Bible that records miracles while ignoring much of the other 99% - except on presentist-biased moral grounds.
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23-10-2013, 02:45 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
^^ Just because no other sources exist does not mean that we don't look at the documents critically and try to evaluate whether or not they really *are* what they claim to be.

Julius Caesar etc *are* subjected to much critical analysis. In fact, it's a fairly fascinating thing. Monks in the middle ages are responsible for preserving a lot of these ancient texts. They used to be copied and copies sent from monastery to monastery. They were careful but there were copying errors. Right from the early days especial efforts were made to track down the errors and establish what was original, what was error, and if some no-good fucker had inserted text. Modern scholars of these texts often have the monastery copies to work with and they face the same problems the monks did, only with better ability to compare texts from the various monasteries and other stuff available to them to be able to critically check the documents.

J Caesar esq, for example, was *known* to be writing propaganda, but a lot of stuff he wouldn't have made up - things like customs of the Gauls etc. He *might* have easily glossed over the odd military reverse - as far as the eager public for whom he was writing De Bello Gallico was concerned, he was the *master* strategist after all. So where opportunity allows people will compare to e.g. letters written by others around the time of Caesar, to archaeological evidence etc. It's *scientific*.

It's very much not a case of just deciding "this text is not religious therefore we accept it as true".

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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23-10-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(23-10-2013 02:36 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(23-10-2013 10:42 AM)DeavonReye Wrote:  Lived in Galilee. Evidence?
Son of David. Evidence?
Born of a virgin. Evidence?

Prove that each of these weren't fabrications to make the Jesus story seem more miraculous.

But you're begging the question and using a circular argument:

"PJ, I know there are documents that say these things happened. But there's no evidence outside the documents that they happened that I know of. Therefore, on that basis alone, the events must not have happened."

Using your argumentation, we can look at supernatural or natural events and dismiss them.

What is your evidence that George Washington was President of the United States? We have documents that said he was. How do we know the portraits hanging in the White House aren't fabrications?

What is your evidence that Julius Caesar existed? Mere documents and sculptures? How do we know they weren't fabricated?

You say your name is Joseph? How do we know your driver's license wasn't fabricated?

How do we know Obama was born in Hawaii? Ah, there we have it, there may be evidence he wasn't.

There are no ancient documents that say Jesus did NOT do miracles or that eyewitnesses debunked his claims. You are using a circular argument of "unlikely that anything supernatural happened" to bolster your claims. Conveniently, too, since this allows you to attack the 1% of the Bible that records miracles while ignoring much of the other 99% - except on presentist-biased moral grounds.

There is no better evidence than this post of your lack of honesty and faulty logic.

Protip for PJ. Type your posts, then walk away for a few moments, come back and re-read the post before hitting "post reply". You might, just might, start to increase your reputation here instead of trying to compare the evidence for the existence of jesus to George Washington.
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23-10-2013, 02:53 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
And where people only have Caesar for a reference they are careful to mention that fact, as in, for example druidic customs - most of the knowledge of them comes from what Caesar wrote as his legions were running around Gaul dismantling the local religion...

It's illogical to dispute the existence of Caesar, too much *other* evidence, impossible to fabricate, points to him.

With the Bible, there *are* other gospels, which I'm sure would make uncomfortable reading for you, given that they contain yet *more* magical thinking, but apart from scriptures written by believers sometimes many centuries after the events they purport to describe, there's nothing else (as far as I know from my reading, if you know better please enlighten me).

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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23-10-2013, 03:05 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(23-10-2013 10:39 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(23-10-2013 10:10 AM)DeavonReye Wrote:  Sometimes I wish someone would put together [a webpage so anyone could access it] an easy to read, point by point, critique of these "prophecies" to show why they aren't. Apologists bring up the "fulfilled prophecies" all the time as it if is a winning argument for their side.

There are such pages. One was referenced recently on this forum, and I went there and quit it after seeing the first 15 or so refutations, which I myself refuted in turn.

I WISH apologists would bring up prophecy more often. The average Christian can't name two prophecies. Here are three, just remember the Lord Darth Vader!

-L-ived in Gaililee

son of -D-avid

born of a -V-irgin

What about all the real things the messiah wss supposed to do? Be a warrior. Born to anyone (yes a decedent of the house of David). No virgin needed...rebuild the temple, end war (by being a warrior and destroying all enemies), end all disease, end death....

Let's face reality the man you worship wasn't the messiah by any stretch of the imagination. All the other so-called phrophecies (and must we remind you such action of soothsaying or predicting are clrearly forbidden by Jewish law) he fulfilled are nothing more than reaching to ignore the far more glaring things he didn't do!

Shoo fly!

Shoo fly!


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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24-10-2013, 02:03 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(23-10-2013 02:45 PM)morondog Wrote:  ^^ Just because no other sources exist does not mean that we don't look at the documents critically and try to evaluate whether or not they really *are* what they claim to be.

Julius Caesar etc *are* subjected to much critical analysis. In fact, it's a fairly fascinating thing. Monks in the middle ages are responsible for preserving a lot of these ancient texts. They used to be copied and copies sent from monastery to monastery. They were careful but there were copying errors. Right from the early days especial efforts were made to track down the errors and establish what was original, what was error, and if some no-good fucker had inserted text. Modern scholars of these texts often have the monastery copies to work with and they face the same problems the monks did, only with better ability to compare texts from the various monasteries and other stuff available to them to be able to critically check the documents.

J Caesar esq, for example, was *known* to be writing propaganda, but a lot of stuff he wouldn't have made up - things like customs of the Gauls etc. He *might* have easily glossed over the odd military reverse - as far as the eager public for whom he was writing De Bello Gallico was concerned, he was the *master* strategist after all. So where opportunity allows people will compare to e.g. letters written by others around the time of Caesar, to archaeological evidence etc. It's *scientific*.

It's very much not a case of just deciding "this text is not religious therefore we accept it as true".

But a balanced view says that in 1) Caesar's case et al, you have panegyric accounts and 2) modern translations of the Bible rely almost wholly on texts so old monastaries hadn't yet been created...
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24-10-2013, 02:05 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(23-10-2013 02:50 PM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  
(23-10-2013 02:36 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  But you're begging the question and using a circular argument:

"PJ, I know there are documents that say these things happened. But there's no evidence outside the documents that they happened that I know of. Therefore, on that basis alone, the events must not have happened."

Using your argumentation, we can look at supernatural or natural events and dismiss them.

What is your evidence that George Washington was President of the United States? We have documents that said he was. How do we know the portraits hanging in the White House aren't fabrications?

What is your evidence that Julius Caesar existed? Mere documents and sculptures? How do we know they weren't fabricated?

You say your name is Joseph? How do we know your driver's license wasn't fabricated?

How do we know Obama was born in Hawaii? Ah, there we have it, there may be evidence he wasn't.

There are no ancient documents that say Jesus did NOT do miracles or that eyewitnesses debunked his claims. You are using a circular argument of "unlikely that anything supernatural happened" to bolster your claims. Conveniently, too, since this allows you to attack the 1% of the Bible that records miracles while ignoring much of the other 99% - except on presentist-biased moral grounds.

There is no better evidence than this post of your lack of honesty and faulty logic.

Protip for PJ. Type your posts, then walk away for a few moments, come back and re-read the post before hitting "post reply". You might, just might, start to increase your reputation here instead of trying to compare the evidence for the existence of jesus to George Washington.

Baloney! It's documentary evidence for both. You are assuming that nothing supernatural is true so the Bible is falsified. The rest of the world (aka normal people) believe in spiritual things and metaphysics.
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24-10-2013, 02:08 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(23-10-2013 03:05 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(23-10-2013 10:39 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  There are such pages. One was referenced recently on this forum, and I went there and quit it after seeing the first 15 or so refutations, which I myself refuted in turn.

I WISH apologists would bring up prophecy more often. The average Christian can't name two prophecies. Here are three, just remember the Lord Darth Vader!

-L-ived in Gaililee

son of -D-avid

born of a -V-irgin

What about all the real things the messiah wss supposed to do? Be a warrior. Born to anyone (yes a decedent of the house of David). No virgin needed...rebuild the temple, end war (by being a warrior and destroying all enemies), end all disease, end death....

Let's face reality the man you worship wasn't the messiah by any stretch of the imagination. All the other so-called phrophecies (and must we remind you such action of soothsaying or predicting are clrearly forbidden by Jewish law) he fulfilled are nothing more than reaching to ignore the far more glaring things he didn't do!

Shoo fly!

Shoo fly!

Thank you for repeating your two objections again, just to make sure I understood them the tenth time you mentioned them:

1. There are prophecies of a warrior Messiah AND a suffering servant Messiah. Jesus, like James Bond and Douglas MacArthur, will return

2. It's hokey crap to say the Bible forbids prophecy. Deal with these verses if you would, please, I'd love your response:

For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done, - Isaiah 46
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