Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
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04-11-2013, 03:53 PM (This post was last modified: 04-11-2013 04:01 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(04-11-2013 03:05 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 10:47 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!

We have contemporary attestation of Caesar; both from his allies, his enemies, and neutral observers. We have Caesar's own words, 'The Civil Wars', a classic of Latin literature. We have statues and coinage that not only corroborate his image, but date to the same time as his rule. Not only that, but if he didn't exist, history would be different. If Caesar had not crossed the Rubicon with his army and ended the Civil War, he would have never been Emperor of Rome.


Do we have anything close to this for Jesus? Not even fucking close. Nope. The earliest writing are Paul's letters, and they are entirely compatible with a spiritual celestial Jesus that never actually existed here on Earth. All that was required for Christianity to flourish was the idea, the belief, in Jesus.

Jesus didn't actually have to exist as is claimed in order to explain anything.


Try again PJ, your shit still smells.

You are wrong. The gospels claim that Jesus had massive crowds following Him and likewise for John, who changed rivers to get more space for the number of baptisms he was doing.

Any contemporaneous Jew could have debunked these claims and said "What Y'shua? Which Yochanan followed by thousands of adherents?" etc. and instead we have huge numbers of Jews and proselytes following Jesus.


The Gospel's are not evidence. Those claims lack any corroboration. You cannot use the Bible to prove the Bible dumbass. Guess how hard it is to make up crowds of 'witnesses'? A whole hell of a lot easier then making up world-wide hours long darkness, multiple earthquakes, the raising of the dead 'as seen unto many' in Jerusalem, or the rending of the Temple veil; ALL OF WHICH EVERY OTHER FUCKING CONTEMPORARY HISTORIAN ON THE PLANET FAILED TO MENTION, EVER.


Fuck your 'they could have debunked it then!' lame bullshit. We're debunking it now and you don't seem to care. Take a look at Heaven's Gate, Scientology, the Mormons, or the Hasedic Jews that think Menachem Mendel Schneerson was the Messiah and are still waiting for his return today after his death in New York back in 94'. This is here an now, in the information age, after we've put people on the fucking moon, and people are still credulous enough to believe in this shit. We have documented court transcripts that show Joseph Smith was convicted of fraud and claiming to have necromantic and divination powers, and yet we still have Mormonism.


You're entire argument is bullshit and holds no water. You know it, and that's why when you knowingly lie about this shit, it drops your opinion down to less than nothing. Go sell your crazy somewhere else. Drinking Beverage

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04-11-2013, 03:57 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(04-11-2013 03:08 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 11:34 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  There seems to be no other accounts of a historic jesus outside the church, perhaps Jesus was nothing more than the personification of the christian mythologies, something to aspire to, to emulate. Clearly to do that would be blasphemy to try to take his teachings at heart would be blasphemy according to the current dogma, you can't take the qualities of a god. Don't you see? You are believing in your own metaphors, literal interpretations will only bring strife in your life. Look at the world of today, why must there be so much hatred between religions? Everyone thinks they are the one true religion all the others are damnations. All the people outside of religion our demonised. This is no way to live life.

Of course there are historic accounts outside the gospels. The Talmud warns Jews that the worst thing they can possibly do is trust Jesus. The same Tamud states that:

*Jesus died at 33 1/2 on Passover on a cross

*Did miracles

*Mary was his mother, Joseph wasn't His father

Of course, your original argument is "only people who loved Jesus wrote four ancient accounts about Him, before eight other authors who loved Him and followed Him wrote 23 other NT documents about Him" which is not a sound argument on its face. Can you cite an ancient person other than Jesus who had 12 authors writing accounts about Him?

Guess what? Quoting the Talmud on this is pointless. It is not contemporary attestation. It's the Jew's just recording what the Christians believed (and much later than even the writing of the Gospels at that), NOT asserting it as truth.

Moron... Drinking Beverage

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04-11-2013, 04:19 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2013 06:16 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(04-11-2013 03:08 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Of course there are historic accounts outside the gospels. The Talmud warns Jews that the worst thing they can possibly do is trust Jesus. The same Tamud states that:

*Jesus died at 33 1/2 on Passover on a cross

*Did miracles

*Mary was his mother, Joseph wasn't His father

Of course, your original argument is "only people who loved Jesus wrote four ancient accounts about Him, before eight other authors who loved Him and followed Him wrote 23 other NT documents about Him" which is not a sound argument on its face. Can you cite an ancient person other than Jesus who had 12 authors writing accounts about Him?

How exactly do you know which Jebus they were talking about ? There were many. There were many miracle workers. It was quite the fad. If Mary was his mother , and Joseph was not his father, why did Matthew, and all the others go to all the trouble to record the lineage ? You have no evidence that "the people who loved him and followed him" wrote anything. She could not have contributed a full set of human DNA, thus he could , (in your world), really not be an actual human ("incarnated"). Not only would Jebus not be a real human, Mary would have had to produce non-human oocytes. Did that happen only once, or every time she ovulated ? What sort of mutation caused her DNA and gametes, to be different from every other human female ever born ?

If there were actually that many early written documents, why is it Clement forgets to mention even one. Would he not care ? A "gospel", (the self-admitted) "good news" is not the (objective) "news". They are "belief statements", not historical documents. There are just as many mythical "historical" documents citing Zeus, in "historical" situations. And there are many other documents from the time period which "place" mythical beings into "historical" contexts, so the "placement" of Yeshua bar Josef, fits perfectly into the established pattern, called "euhemerization". ( http://dictionary.babylon.com/euhemerization/ )
There is no evidence that the people who were actually alive in the early 1st Century, wrote things, apart from Paul, (who actually probably never even met the apostles), even met the live Jebus, (assuming there even was one). Why and how do you think they are NOT referencing the Jesus, the mythical son of god whom the Jews believed in (per Philo), who predated Jebus, who died between the Earth and the Moon, with all the exact same features, and qualities ?

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04-11-2013, 04:31 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(04-11-2013 03:08 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  *Jesus died at 33 1/2 on Passover on a cross

*Did miracles

*Mary was his mother, Joseph wasn't His father


You forgot to mention that that the Talmud says that Jesus performed those miracles with his penis.
And that he had sex with that donkey he rode into Jerusalem upon.
(Balaam is a well know pseudonym for Jesus in the Talmud.)

Rabbi Johanan said: Balaam limped on one foot ... and he walked haltingly.
... Balaam was blind in one eye ... He practised enchantment by means of his
penis. ... Mar the son of Rabina said: Balaam committed bestiality with his ass.
It is said that Balaam knows the mind of god. Now, seeing that he did not
even know the mind of his ass, how could he know the mind of god? What is
this about the mind of his ass? The rabbis said to Balaam, ‘Why did you not
ride upon your horse?’ Balaam replied. ‘I have put it out to graze in the dewy
pastures.’ But the ass said to him, ‘Am I just thine ass, merely for carrying loads?’
Balaam replied: ‘Upon which you have ridden.’ ‘That was only by chance.’
‘Ever since I was thine until this day,’ The ass added: ‘Moreover, I serve thee as
a companion by night.’ Here is written: ‘Was I ever wont to do so unto thee.’
Whilst elsewhere it is written: ‘And let her be his companion.’
(Sanhedrin
105ab)


Ralph
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05-11-2013, 08:48 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(04-11-2013 03:57 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Guess what? Quoting the Talmud on this is pointless. It is not contemporary attestation. It's the Jew's just recording what the Christians believed (and much later than even the writing of the Gospels at that), NOT asserting it as truth.

Moron... Drinking Beverage


Actually, much of the Talmud was written by Johannan ben Zakkai, the leader of the Jewish Sanhedrin in Yabne, after Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in AD 70. Thus much of the material in the Talmud is 1st century material, even if the oldest extant Talmud dates from 1342 (the Munich Manuscript).

Ralph
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05-11-2013, 01:15 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(04-11-2013 03:53 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(04-11-2013 03:05 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You are wrong. The gospels claim that Jesus had massive crowds following Him and likewise for John, who changed rivers to get more space for the number of baptisms he was doing.

Any contemporaneous Jew could have debunked these claims and said "What Y'shua? Which Yochanan followed by thousands of adherents?" etc. and instead we have huge numbers of Jews and proselytes following Jesus.


The Gospel's are not evidence. Those claims lack any corroboration. You cannot use the Bible to prove the Bible dumbass. Guess how hard it is to make up crowds of 'witnesses'? A whole hell of a lot easier then making up world-wide hours long darkness, multiple earthquakes, the raising of the dead 'as seen unto many' in Jerusalem, or the rending of the Temple veil; ALL OF WHICH EVERY OTHER FUCKING CONTEMPORARY HISTORIAN ON THE PLANET FAILED TO MENTION, EVER.


Fuck your 'they could have debunked it then!' lame bullshit. We're debunking it now and you don't seem to care. Take a look at Heaven's Gate, Scientology, the Mormons, or the Hasedic Jews that think Menachem Mendel Schneerson was the Messiah and are still waiting for his return today after his death in New York back in 94'. This is here an now, in the information age, after we've put people on the fucking moon, and people are still credulous enough to believe in this shit. We have documented court transcripts that show Joseph Smith was convicted of fraud and claiming to have necromantic and divination powers, and yet we still have Mormonism.


You're entire argument is bullshit and holds no water. You know it, and that's why when you knowingly lie about this shit, it drops your opinion down to less than nothing. Go sell your crazy somewhere else. Drinking Beverage

And many of the cults you mention fulfill prophecy by coming in Jesus's name! I'm very aware, by the way, of the issues that underly the false cult of Mormonism.

However, your misstatement was in saying the gospels lack corroboration. There are four of them. Jospeh Smith wrote the Book of Mormon through his assistants. So did Muhammed the Qu'ran. There are four gospel writers.
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05-11-2013, 01:18 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(04-11-2013 03:57 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(04-11-2013 03:08 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Of course there are historic accounts outside the gospels. The Talmud warns Jews that the worst thing they can possibly do is trust Jesus. The same Tamud states that:

*Jesus died at 33 1/2 on Passover on a cross

*Did miracles

*Mary was his mother, Joseph wasn't His father

Of course, your original argument is "only people who loved Jesus wrote four ancient accounts about Him, before eight other authors who loved Him and followed Him wrote 23 other NT documents about Him" which is not a sound argument on its face. Can you cite an ancient person other than Jesus who had 12 authors writing accounts about Him?

Guess what? Quoting the Talmud on this is pointless. It is not contemporary attestation. It's the Jew's just recording what the Christians believed (and much later than even the writing of the Gospels at that), NOT asserting it as truth.

Moron... Drinking Beverage

EK:

The Jews were teaching in the Talmud not to trust Jesus for salvation. You know that, right? So Occam's Razor would have them falsify His truth claims. Stating that Jeuss was a "mesith" or "sorceror", by contrast, shows that they couldn't invalidate His miracles, merely ascribe them to evil powers... sorry, you are incorrect here.

Saying the Talmud said, "This isn't true but is what the Christian Jews believe" is nowhere stated in the many volumes of Talmud and is an untrue statement you've made.
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05-11-2013, 01:20 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(04-11-2013 04:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-11-2013 03:08 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Of course there are historic accounts outside the gospels. The Talmud warns Jews that the worst thing they can possibly do is trust Jesus. The same Tamud states that:

*Jesus died at 33 1/2 on Passover on a cross

*Did miracles

*Mary was his mother, Joseph wasn't His father

Of course, your original argument is "only people who loved Jesus wrote four ancient accounts about Him, before eight other authors who loved Him and followed Him wrote 23 other NT documents about Him" which is not a sound argument on its face. Can you cite an ancient person other than Jesus who had 12 authors writing accounts about Him?

How exactly do you know which Jebus they were talking about ? There were many. There were many miracle workers. It was quite the fad. If Mary was his mother , and Joseph was not his father, why did Matthew, and all the others go to all the trouble to record the lineage ? You have no evidence that "the people who loved him and followed him" wrote anything. She could not have contributed a full set of human DNA, thus he could , (in your world), really not be an actual human ("incarnated"). Not only would Jebus not be a real human, Mary would have had to produce non-human oocytes. Did that happen only once, or every time she ovulated ? What sort of mutation caused her DNA and gametes, to be different from every other human female ever born ?

If there were actually that many early written documents, why is it Clement forgets to mention even one. Would he not care ? A "gospel", (the self-admitted) "good news" is not the (objective) "news". They are "belief statements", not historical documents. There are just as many mythical "historical" documents citing Zeus, in "historical" situations. And there are many other documents from the time period which "place" mythical beings into "historical" contexts, so the "placement" of Yeshua bar Josef, fits perfectly into the established pattern, called "euhemerization". ( http://dictionary.babylon.com/euhemerization/ )
There is no evidence that the people who were actually alive in the early 1st Century, wrote things, apart from Paul, (who actually probably never even met the apostles), even met the live Jebus, (assuming there even was one). Why and how do you think they are NOT referencing the Jesus, the mythical son of god whom the Jews believed in (per Philo), who predated Jebus, who died between the Earth and the Moon, with all the exact same features, and qualities ?

Most of what you wrote is rambling, however, it sounds as if you are not refuting my claim that the Talmud records the miracles and atoning death of Jesus, merely asserting that this was a different Jesus who died at 33 1/2, whose mother was Mary but whose supposed father, Joseph, wasn't, and who was crucified on Passover and did miracles.

Which other Jesus do you think that was?
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05-11-2013, 01:22 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(04-11-2013 04:31 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(04-11-2013 03:08 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  *Jesus died at 33 1/2 on Passover on a cross

*Did miracles

*Mary was his mother, Joseph wasn't His father


You forgot to mention that that the Talmud says that Jesus performed those miracles with his penis.
And that he had sex with that donkey he rode into Jerusalem upon.
(Balaam is a well know pseudonym for Jesus in the Talmud.)

Rabbi Johanan said: Balaam limped on one foot ... and he walked haltingly.
... Balaam was blind in one eye ... He practised enchantment by means of his
penis. ... Mar the son of Rabina said: Balaam committed bestiality with his ass.
It is said that Balaam knows the mind of god. Now, seeing that he did not
even know the mind of his ass, how could he know the mind of god? What is
this about the mind of his ass? The rabbis said to Balaam, ‘Why did you not
ride upon your horse?’ Balaam replied. ‘I have put it out to graze in the dewy
pastures.’ But the ass said to him, ‘Am I just thine ass, merely for carrying loads?’
Balaam replied: ‘Upon which you have ridden.’ ‘That was only by chance.’
‘Ever since I was thine until this day,’ The ass added: ‘Moreover, I serve thee as
a companion by night.’ Here is written: ‘Was I ever wont to do so unto thee.’
Whilst elsewhere it is written: ‘And let her be his companion.’
(Sanhedrin
105ab)


Ralph

I've also "forgotten" the Talmud says all Gentiles are utterly worthless and other statements I'd repudiate.

But again, even though the Talmud says Jesus did vile things, it supports, not repudiates, His atoning death on the cross, His death at age 33 1/2, that Mary was His mother but Joseph not His father, and that He did miraculous wonders.

So do us all a favor, and cease from saying there are no documents outside the Bible that support the gospel stories.
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05-11-2013, 01:24 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(05-11-2013 08:48 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(04-11-2013 03:57 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Guess what? Quoting the Talmud on this is pointless. It is not contemporary attestation. It's the Jew's just recording what the Christians believed (and much later than even the writing of the Gospels at that), NOT asserting it as truth.

Moron... Drinking Beverage


Actually, much of the Talmud was written by Johannan ben Zakkai, the leader of the Jewish Sanhedrin in Yabne, after Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in AD 70. Thus much of the material in the Talmud is 1st century material, even if the oldest extant Talmud dates from 1342 (the Munich Manuscript).

Ralph

Yes, I know. I'm still insisting, a book(s) written after 70 does not refute that Jesus circa 30 CE had huge crowds of followers, performed miracles, and died on Passover, and etc.
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