Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
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05-11-2013, 01:27 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(05-11-2013 01:18 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(04-11-2013 03:57 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Guess what? Quoting the Talmud on this is pointless. It is not contemporary attestation. It's the Jew's just recording what the Christians believed (and much later than even the writing of the Gospels at that), NOT asserting it as truth.

Moron... Drinking Beverage

EK:

The Jews were teaching in the Talmud not to trust Jesus for salvation. You know that, right? So Occam's Razor would have them falsify His truth claims. Stating that Jeuss was a "mesith" or "sorceror", by contrast, shows that they couldn't invalidate His miracles, merely ascribe them to evil powers... sorry, you are incorrect here.

Saying the Talmud said, "This isn't true but is what the Christian Jews believe" is nowhere stated in the many volumes of Talmud and is an untrue statement you've made.

Please quote EXACTLY where they said in the Talmud "do not trust Jesus *for salvation*". Then prove which one they were talking about, and (assuming you find ANYTHING about "salvation", in the Talmud, please write or post a 5 page paper, explaining where and how the concept of "personal salvation" entered the thinking of Hebrew culture, in both the Torah, and the Talmud, where they got it, how it differed from their neighbors, and explain how and why it developed, the steps in the development, and how it made sense in a culture which did not believe in a "fall", or personal immortality. You are a writer, no ? Certainly you have something already written on the subject you can cut and paste. Your paper will be due by 12/1/13. Thenks awfully.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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05-11-2013, 01:41 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2013 01:48 PM by ralphellis.)
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(05-11-2013 01:24 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Yes, I know. I'm still insisting, a book(s) written after 70 does not refute that Jesus circa 30 CE had huge crowds of followers, performed miracles, and died on Passover, and etc.

But that is the whole point -- did Jesus 'die' circa AD 30?

Actually, the whole thrust of the Talmud's commentary is that Jesus was the leader of the Jewish Revolt in AD 70. Thats why they hated him so much, that they called for him to be boiled in semen and sh!t. And the leader of the Jewish Revolt in the records of Josephus Flavius, is called either Jesus of Gamala or Izas of Adiabene (two spellings of the same name).

That this the central point I am making. If Jesus was Jesus of Gamala (i.e.: King Izas of Adiabene-Edessa), then Johannan ben Zakkai would have been recording current events in his Talmud.


Ralph
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05-11-2013, 01:47 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(05-11-2013 01:22 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I've also "forgotten" the Talmud says all Gentiles are utterly worthless and other statements I'd repudiate.

But again, even though the Talmud says Jesus did vile things, it supports, not repudiates, His atoning death on the cross, His death at age 33 1/2, that Mary was His mother but Joseph not His father, and that He did miraculous wonders.

So do us all a favor, and cease from saying there are no documents outside the Bible that support the gospel stories.

Eh?

Where does the Talmud say Jesus was 33 or that his death atoned for something?

And again, while the Talmud does say that Jesus did miracles, it says he did them with his penis, and via some tattoos* that he brought back from Egypt. And that is not exactly the Christian message ….Big Grin


* Sometimes interpreted as cuts instead of tattoos. Apparently, the tattoo/cuts held the secret and unmentionable name of god.

Ralph
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05-11-2013, 02:10 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(05-11-2013 01:41 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  If Jesus was Jesus of Gamala (i.e.: King Izas of Adiabene-Edessa)

Can you provide us with any links or published peer-reviewed research concerning this theory of yours ? You have published this yourself in book form, I understand. But a book doth not a truth make. Nor does a forum or blog post. So what is the scholarly reaction to your theory ?

The accusation has often been leveled at you that you are a crank. Can you refute it ?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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05-11-2013, 03:32 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(05-11-2013 01:27 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-11-2013 01:18 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  EK:

The Jews were teaching in the Talmud not to trust Jesus for salvation. You know that, right? So Occam's Razor would have them falsify His truth claims. Stating that Jeuss was a "mesith" or "sorceror", by contrast, shows that they couldn't invalidate His miracles, merely ascribe them to evil powers... sorry, you are incorrect here.

Saying the Talmud said, "This isn't true but is what the Christian Jews believe" is nowhere stated in the many volumes of Talmud and is an untrue statement you've made.

Please quote EXACTLY where they said in the Talmud "do not trust Jesus *for salvation*". Then prove which one they were talking about, and (assuming you find ANYTHING about "salvation", in the Talmud, please write or post a 5 page paper, explaining where and how the concept of "personal salvation" entered the thinking of Hebrew culture, in both the Torah, and the Talmud, where they got it, how it differed from their neighbors, and explain how and why it developed, the steps in the development, and how it made sense in a culture which did not believe in a "fall", or personal immortality. You are a writer, no ? Certainly you have something already written on the subject you can cut and paste. Your paper will be due by 12/1/13. Thenks awfully.

I say to you atheists as often as possible "trust Jesus for salvation". The Talmud puts it differently as Jesus is a bastard, deceiver and enticer. Don't be coy about the Talmud, please.

And don't be a fool about the Hebrew concept of salvation. The etymology of the word salvation in English comes from its 109 references in the Old Testament, as I've already cited to you.

Further, the Jewish people in their HB believe in a Fall and immortality. There was a fall in Genesis and if the people ate of the tree of life they would live forever in an unredeemed state. As early as Genesis 3, we're looking at the Fall, redemption and immortality. You're not being ridiculous per se, merely parroting the garbage you read in books by mainline scholars that no one reads save other mainline scholars!
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05-11-2013, 03:34 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(05-11-2013 01:47 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(05-11-2013 01:22 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I've also "forgotten" the Talmud says all Gentiles are utterly worthless and other statements I'd repudiate.

But again, even though the Talmud says Jesus did vile things, it supports, not repudiates, His atoning death on the cross, His death at age 33 1/2, that Mary was His mother but Joseph not His father, and that He did miraculous wonders.

So do us all a favor, and cease from saying there are no documents outside the Bible that support the gospel stories.

Eh?

Where does the Talmud say Jesus was 33 or that his death atoned for something?

And again, while the Talmud does say that Jesus did miracles, it says he did them with his penis, and via some tattoos* that he brought back from Egypt. And that is not exactly the Christian message ….Big Grin


* Sometimes interpreted as cuts instead of tattoos. Apparently, the tattoo/cuts held the secret and unmentionable name of god.

Ralph

From Sanhedrin 106: "Hast thou heard how old Balaam [Jesus] was?--He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old."

And no, Ralph, the Talmud does "not exactly contain the Christian message". My exact point--it is an anti-Christianity document which says Jesus did miracles, died at 33 on a cross on Passover, etc!
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05-11-2013, 03:36 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(05-11-2013 02:10 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(05-11-2013 01:41 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  If Jesus was Jesus of Gamala (i.e.: King Izas of Adiabene-Edessa)

Can you provide us with any links or published peer-reviewed research concerning this theory of yours ? You have published this yourself in book form, I understand. But a book doth not a truth make. Nor does a forum or blog post. So what is the scholarly reaction to your theory ?

The accusation has often been leveled at you that you are a crank. Can you refute it ?

And HERE is your exact problem, a problem which 99% of people who have ever lived don't share:

a) "Can you provide us with any links or published peer-reviewed research" - peer-reviewed research does not = truth per se

b) But a book doth not a truth make - but the Bible is a book - where do you learn truth? Prayer? Meditation? Do you ever get ANY truths from books?
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05-11-2013, 03:51 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2013 09:39 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(05-11-2013 03:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I say to you atheists as often as possible "trust Jesus for salvation". The Talmud puts it differently as Jesus is a bastard, deceiver and enticer. Don't be coy about the Talmud, please.

Was that supposed to mean something ? No one cares what you say to anyone, or how often you say it.

(05-11-2013 03:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And don't be a fool about the Hebrew concept of salvation. The etymology of the word salvation in English comes from its 109 references in the Old Testament, as I've already cited to you.

The etymology of a word used in 2013, in no way says anything about it's use and meaning 2000 years ago. I see you have no knowledge of the subject, or even where to go find it. I see you cannot make a case for salvation, or immortality.

(05-11-2013 03:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Further, the Jewish people in their HB believe in a Fall and immortality. There was a fall in Genesis and if the people ate of the tree of life they would live forever in an unredeemed state. As early as Genesis 3, we're looking at the Fall, redemption and immortality. You're not being ridiculous per se, merely parroting the garbage you read in books by mainline scholars that no one reads save other mainline scholars!

The Jewish people did not have a "holy bible". Assertion is not proof. The problem is you simply spout modern 3rd Grade level, infantile, simplistic notions of "fall and immortality". I see you know even less about your (supposed) field than I thought. Martin Buber, (the famous Jewish Talmud scholar, and philosopher utterly disagrees with you). Who should I take seriously ? You, who has not even a Freshman in college knowledge of the ancient Near East, a pamphlet writer, or a Talmud philosopher, of world renown ? I "parrot" nothing. I realize you NEED to say shit like that, because your "rote" fundie crap, is the only way you know how to do anything. But thank for admitting your "WAY OUT IN LEFT FIELD" fundie views, are just that, and in no way resemble mainline scholarship.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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05-11-2013, 04:16 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(05-11-2013 03:36 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And HERE is your exact problem, a problem which 99% of people who have ever lived don't share:

a) "Can you provide us with any links or published peer-reviewed research" - peer-reviewed research does not = truth per se
But it does == expert consensus. So you tell me, which do you prefer ? Expert consensus or pulled outta someone's ass ? Your ass perhaps ?

Quote:b) But a book doth not a truth make - but the Bible is a book - where do you learn truth? Prayer? Meditation? Do you ever get ANY truths from books?
I evaluate truth and apply skepticism and *always* bear in mind that whatever is written there may not be the whole story. Where do you learn truth ?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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05-11-2013, 08:35 PM
Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(04-11-2013 05:48 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 07:09 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  Caesar wrote books, Jesus did not.


On the contrary, he probably did.

One of the greatest books missing from history is "The history of the kings of Judaea" by Justus of Tiberius. It is likely that this is either James Justus (brother of Jesus) or perhaps Jesus Justus (Jesus).

As a King of the Jews, and a tekton (a Freemason), it is highly likely that Jesus did indeed write a diary or biography of his life.


Ralph

If he did, it was lost. And to speak of this lost book is pure speculation. When I see the book, I will think differently about him.

"Laissez nous faire!"

"I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor will I ever ask another man to live for mine."
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