Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
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06-11-2013, 04:55 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(06-11-2013 03:30 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(06-11-2013 03:17 PM)morondog Wrote:  Right, so *until* your theory *is* mainstream Imma do the conservative thing and not touch it with a barge pole Wink


Sure, no problem.

But you would have been one of those patients back in 1986 who died of peritonitis caused by a peptic ulcer, because you would not believe Barry Marshall's theory that an ulcer was caused by helicobacter pylori. Weeping

Your choice. No

Don't be daft. What do I lose by disbelieving your theory until there is support for it in academia ? I *gain* the integrity of not placing my faith in some guy who says 'Believe me, I'm very very believable.'

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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07-11-2013, 02:28 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(06-11-2013 02:45 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(06-11-2013 02:11 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Once you all begin to argue with one another, my work is done. Smile

Laughat You are a tool. *Anything* to claim the win eh ? When nothing you say gains any traction you have to resort to pathetic crap like this...

Traction? You are people made in God's image and not slats of mud I'm driving a truck across.

Just because you don't respond to love, faith or logic when it comes from above doesn't mean I have to answer (again) once you dissolve into infighting.
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08-11-2013, 12:10 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(07-11-2013 02:28 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Traction? You are people made in God's image and not slats of mud I'm driving a truck across.

Peer reviewed, objective, verifiable evidence or GTFO.


(07-11-2013 02:28 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Just because you don't respond to love, faith or logic when it comes from above doesn't mean I have to answer (again) once you dissolve into infighting.

Love and faith? Is that what you consider your bullshit posts contain? The get the fuck over yourself, you're a bullshit salesman and we can smell you miles away.

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10-11-2013, 09:35 PM
Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
PS, have you any evidence that this Jesus of yours actually existed?

"Laissez nous faire!"

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12-11-2013, 02:32 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(10-11-2013 09:35 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  PS, have you any evidence that this Jesus of yours actually existed?

Yes. We can start with the fact that 12 authors produced 27 documents about Him in the NT, not including gnostic and pseudopigraphical gospels and epistles.

We can proceed to the fact that many of these documents say large crowds witnessed Jesus, saw miracles performed, etc. and then to the fact that large numbers of early converts were Jews, who would have known if the large crowds and miracles and teachings were false. There were both believers in Israel and in the countries of the diaspora from where Jews gathered semi-annually in Jerusalem to hear Jesus preach and attend Temple ceremonies and etc.

In other words 1) we have a larger body of documentarians writing about Jesus than for other ancient literary figures 2) those on the front line did not discredit the NT but adhered to it
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13-11-2013, 04:02 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(12-11-2013 02:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(10-11-2013 09:35 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  PS, have you any evidence that this Jesus of yours actually existed?

In other words 1) we have a larger body of documentarians writing about Jesus than for other ancient literary figures 2) those on the front line did not discredit the NT but adhered to it


Well that is not really true, is it. In contrast to most historical figures, we have very limited evidence for Jesus, mainly from 'believers'. And that is not really evidence, is it?

Having said that, the evidence from the Talmud suggests that Jesus was a real historical character. However, the adjustment that Christians need to make, is that according to the Talmud their hero was a prince and king who lived in the AD 60s.

Within these records Jesus was called either Jesus of Gamala or King Izas u Kama, and he ruled the Osrhoene (and eventually Judaea) from the city of Edessa. But once believers accept this small adjustment, yes, it is true that Jesus was a historical figure - a real historical figure without the fairy-dust that the gospels applied to his life and times.


R
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13-11-2013, 04:12 AM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2013 08:27 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(12-11-2013 02:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Yes. We can start with the fact that 12 authors produced 27 documents about Him in the NT, not including gnostic and pseudopigraphical gospels and epistles.

By this logic Luke Sykwalker, Indiana Jones, Frodo Baggins, and Spider-Man all have a stronger case for historicity than Jesus (they all have many diverse sources created by multiple people that contradict themselves less than the Bible does). That's not even counting that outside of the few letters that are believed to have actually been written by Paul (about half are believed to be forgeries), everything else in the Bible was written anonymously. Moses did not write the books attributed to him, Mark did not write the Gospel according to Mark, same for Luke, Mathew, John, etc.


(12-11-2013 02:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  We can proceed to the fact that many of these documents say large crowds witnessed Jesus, saw miracles performed, etc. and then to the fact that large numbers of early converts were Jews, who would have known if the large crowds and miracles and teachings were false. There were both believers in Israel and in the countries of the diaspora from where Jews gathered semi-annually in Jerusalem to hear Jesus preach and attend Temple ceremonies and etc.

How hard is it to invent a large crowd of witnesses inside an invented story? Not fucking hard at all. Just look at how many witnesses he have to the Death Star destroying Alderaan! Or how about the defeat of the orc hordes at Helm's Deep? There is simply no outside corroboration, the stories themselves cannot be used as proof for the stories themselves; and this has been explained to you multiple times before you ignorant troll.


(12-11-2013 02:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  In other words 1) we have a larger body of documentarians writing about Jesus than for other ancient literary figures 2) those on the front line did not discredit the NT but adhered to it

1. Bullshit. No outside corroboration, nothing written during the time of Jesus. Compare this to Emperor Caesar Augustus? We have Caesar's own word and writings (among them letters he wrote, and 'The Civil Wars' which he authored). We have statues of Caesar, we have coins minted in his honor. He is mentioned across multiple contemporaneous accounts, from men that served under his command, sitting Roman senators and nobility, and his enemies and adversaries. Everything we have about Jesus comes long after his death, and simply reiterates what the Christians already believed; that is not proof for the life of Jesus, it's proof of what people believed about the life of Jesus (these are two very different things). Also, history rests upon a contingent that Caesar existed. Had Caesar never existed, he could not have become the Emperor of the Roman Empire (an incontestable fact of history). All you need to explain Christianity is the belief in Jesus, nothing requires him to have actually existed. Reread the authentic Pauline letters again, and notice how Paul's Jesus is entire compatible with a spiritual Jesus that never actually existed on Earth. Paul never mentions Jesus' virgin birth, any of his family, or anything at all about his supposed earthly ministry. Paul has visions of a celestial Jesus, and he claims to get his teaching from this source.

2. Bullshit. Even today with near universal literacy, compulsory education, and access to the internet; people still believe stupid shit even in the face of it's incontrovertible refutation. The Heaven's Gate cult, the followers of Menachem Mendel Schneerson (Jews who think he is the Messiah, and he died in New York city in 94'), those who swear by healing crystals, or astrology, or homeopathy. Even within your own warped world view, every religion in the world that isn't your own particular brand of Christian truth is proof of this! The world is filled with incredulous, illogical, and ignorant people who refuse to accept anything that conflicts with their preconceived notions. You should know first hand PJ, you're one of them... Drinking Beverage

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13-11-2013, 04:59 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(06-11-2013 11:22 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  Have I been peer reviewed?
No

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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13-11-2013, 10:29 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(13-11-2013 04:02 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(12-11-2013 02:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  In other words 1) we have a larger body of documentarians writing about Jesus than for other ancient literary figures 2) those on the front line did not discredit the NT but adhered to it


Well that is not really true, is it. In contrast to most historical figures, we have very limited evidence for Jesus, mainly from 'believers'. And that is not really evidence, is it?

Having said that, the evidence from the Talmud suggests that Jesus was a real historical character. However, the adjustment that Christians need to make, is that according to the Talmud their hero was a prince and king who lived in the AD 60s.

Within these records Jesus was called either Jesus of Gamala or King Izas u Kama, and he ruled the Osrhoene (and eventually Judaea) from the city of Edessa. But once believers accept this small adjustment, yes, it is true that Jesus was a historical figure - a real historical figure without the fairy-dust that the gospels applied to his life and times.


R

Your first sentence is ridiculous on its face in the light of the fact that most of the other records of the entire ancient world touching individuals are panegyric in nature.

Or we can say Caesar's biography proves Caesar doesn't exist because it is an autobiography and he "believed" he existed.

Put it in your brain, please--most biographies are written by biographers who are devoutly interested in researching and chronicling their subjects. The historicity of Jesus--not His miracles--is a foregone conclusion among mainline scholars.

Your talmudic king died at 33 1/2 on a tree on Passover and performing miracles, the son of Mary. So cut it out, please, Ralph.
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13-11-2013, 10:31 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(13-11-2013 04:12 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(12-11-2013 02:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Yes. We can start with the fact that 12 authors produced 27 documents about Him in the NT, not including gnostic and pseudopigraphical gospels and epistles.

By this logic Luke Sykwalker, Indiana Jones, Frodo Baggins, and Spider-Man all have a stronger case for historicity than Jesus (they all have many diverse sources created by multiple people that contradict themselves less than the Bible does). That's not even counting that outside of the few letters that are believed to have actually been written by Paul (about half are believed to be forgeries), everything else in the Bible was written anonymously. Moses did not write the books attributed to him, Mark did not write the Gospel according to Mark, same for Luke, Mathew, John, etc.


(12-11-2013 02:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  We can proceed to the fact that many of these documents say large crowds witnessed Jesus, saw miracles performed, etc. and then to the fact that large numbers of early converts were Jews, who would have known if the large crowds and miracles and teachings were false. There were both believers in Israel and in the countries of the diaspora from where Jews gathered semi-annually in Jerusalem to hear Jesus preach and attend Temple ceremonies and etc.

How hard is it to invent a large crowd of witnesses inside an invented story? Not fucking hard at all. Just look at how many witnesses he have to the Death Star destroying Alderaan! Or how about the defeat of the orc hordes at Helm's Deep? There is simply no outside corroboration, the stories themselves cannot be used as proof for the stories themselves; and this has been explained to you multiple times before you ignorant troll.


(12-11-2013 02:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  In other words 1) we have a larger body of documentarians writing about Jesus than for other ancient literary figures 2) those on the front line did not discredit the NT but adhered to it

1. Bullshit. No outside corroboration, nothing written during the time of Jesus. Compare this to Emperor Caesar Augustus? We have Caesar's own word and writings (among them letters he wrote, and 'The Civil Wars' which he authored). We have statues of Caesar, we have coins minted in his honor. He is mentioned across multiple contemporaneous accounts, from men that served under his command, sitting Roman senators and nobility, and his enemies and adversaries. Everything we have about Jesus comes long after his death, and simply reiterates what the Christians already believed; that is not proof for the life of Jesus, it's proof of what people believed about the life of Jesus (these are two very different things). Also, history rests upon a contingent that Caesar existed. Had Caesar never existed, he could not have become the Emperor of the Roman Empire (an incontestable fact of history). All you need to explain Christianity is the belief in Jesus, nothing requires him to have actually existed. Reread the authentic Pauline letters again, and notice how Paul's Jesus is entire compatible with a spiritual Jesus that never actually existed on Earth. Paul never mentions Jesus' virgin birth, any of his family, or anything at all about his supposed earthly ministry. Paul has visions of a celestial Jesus, and he claims to get his teaching from this source.

2. Bullshit. Even today with near universal literacy, compulsory education, and access to the internet; people still believe stupid shit even in the face of it's incontrovertible refutation. The Heaven's Gate cult, the followers of Menachem Mendel Schneerson (Jews who think he is the Messiah, and he died in New York city in 94'), those who swear by healing crystals, or astrology, or homeopathy. Even within your own warped world view, every religion in the world that isn't your own particular brand of Christian truth is proof of this! The world is filled with incredulous, illogical, and ignorant people who refuse to accept anything that conflicts with their preconceived notions. You should know first hand PJ, you're one of them... Drinking Beverage

You are wandering all over the place here. I'll confine myself to saying this--the Hale Bopp folks had no empirical evidence for beings attached to space comets. The Jews of Jesus's day had empirical documents stating that a miracle worker who had tens of thousands of followers spoke "openly in the Temple and synagogues". There's a huge difference.

You are further being disingenous as a simple review of Wikipedia for the historicity of Jesus affirms that most mainline scholars agree--Jesus of Nazareth was baptized and crucified. You are just struggling with the moral and supernatural aspects of the gospels--that makes sense to me, since you are living as an atheist.
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