Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
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13-11-2013, 06:42 PM
Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(12-11-2013 02:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(10-11-2013 09:35 PM)Crimson Flyboy Wrote:  PS, have you any evidence that this Jesus of yours actually existed?

Yes. We can start with the fact that 12 authors produced 27 documents about Him in the NT, not including gnostic and pseudopigraphical gospels and epistles.

We can proceed to the fact that many of these documents say large crowds witnessed Jesus, saw miracles performed, etc. and then to the fact that large numbers of early converts were Jews, who would have known if the large crowds and miracles and teachings were false. There were both believers in Israel and in the countries of the diaspora from where Jews gathered semi-annually in Jerusalem to hear Jesus preach and attend Temple ceremonies and etc.

In other words 1) we have a larger body of documentarians writing about Jesus than for other ancient literary figures 2) those on the front line did not discredit the NT but adhered to it

All of the writers of the NT lived after the supposed life of Jesus, therefore none of them are eye witnesses and they can't be trusted. The earliest gospel was written decades after the life of Jesus, and Paul doesn't really have much to say about his life or his sayings. This also begs the question, why did no one who lived during the life of Jesus write down anything about him? Why did Jesus not write down anything himself?

It is odd that the NT would mention these large crowds following Jesus, yet no where else are these large crowds spoken of. How did the Jews completely miss this miracle worker who had thousands following him? It has been noted that no where in the Talmud is Jesus of Nazareth mentioned, not once.

There was a time in which the ancient Greeks thought Heracles actually lived. They thought he was a real person, but they were wrong. It is not unprecedented for a supposed historical figure to turn out to be purely fictional, especially when that supposed historical figure is worshipped as a god.

None of this works, try again.

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14-11-2013, 04:52 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(13-11-2013 10:29 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(13-11-2013 04:02 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  Having said that, the evidence from the Talmud suggests that Jesus was a real historical character. However, the adjustment that Christians need to make, is that according to the Talmud their hero was a prince and king who lived in the AD 60s.

Your talmudic king died at 33 1/2 on a tree on Passover and performing miracles, the son of Mary. So cut it out, please, Ralph.

Yes, but which Passover? Actually, it was the Passover of AD 68 or 69. The Talmud calls Jesus 'bar Kamza', the son of a locust, and it says:

Quote:
The destruction of Jerusalem came through a Kamza and a Bar Kamza in this way. A certain man had a friend Kamza and an enemy Bar Kamza. He once made a party and said to his servant, Go and bring Kamza. The man went and brought Bar Kamza. When the man [who gave the party] found him there he said, See, you tell tales about me; what are you doing here? Get out. Said the other: Since I am here, let me stay, and I will pay you for whatever I eat and drink. Gittin 55

This party or meeting is the same that is mentioned in John 7:1, where Jesus likewise went secretly to the party and was similarly disapproved of. But, as you may notice, it was bar Kamza (Jesus) who was responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem.

In the accounts of Josephus, it was Jesus of Gamala (Izas u Kama) who was blamed for the destruction of Jerusalem. Clearly, Jesus and Jesus-Izas were one and the same person.


R
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14-11-2013, 05:13 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(13-11-2013 10:31 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You are wandering all over the place here. I'll confine myself to saying this--the Hale Bopp folks had no empirical evidence for beings attached to space comets. The Jews of Jesus's day had empirical documents stating that a miracle worker who had tens of thousands of followers spoke "openly in the Temple and synagogues". There's a huge difference.

You are further being disingenous as a simple review of Wikipedia for the historicity of Jesus affirms that most mainline scholars agree--Jesus of Nazareth was baptized and crucified. You are just struggling with the moral and supernatural aspects of the gospels--that makes sense to me, since you are living as an atheist.


I would call you retarded, but that would be insulting people born with a real disadvantage; you appear to have 'learned' yours.

I have empirical evidence that says that 9-11 was in inside job, orchestrated by the government for their own insidious agenda! Not only that, there are hundreds (if not thousands) that can attest to the fact that they heard rockets and not jets, or that the explosion was just too big to be just jet fuel, or that the steel collapsed too quickly from the heat! I mean, just look at all of the people who signed all of the petitions, all of the people who saw what happened that day and are not satisfied with the official story! Surely that's proof! Congrats, you're a third rate I&I with a god complex. Laughat Or it's only so much smoke and mirrors, and people can see what they want to see and let the evidence be damned.

If your standard of evidence and credulity is so low as to accept that as evidence for the divinity of Jesus, then by rights you should also accept that Jospeh Smith and Muhammad were also prophets of God. The same strength of evidence can be found attesting to the ascension of the Buddha, the existence of Bigfoot or Nessie, statues coming alive to defend the Pantheon in Athens against invaders, and the miracle of levitation performed by countless swami's, guru's, and Las Vegas stage performers.

Also, the consensus of Biblical scholar is that Jesus existed, but also that he was NOT the divine son of god. Chew on that dumbass... Dodgy

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14-11-2013, 11:28 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(14-11-2013 04:52 AM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(13-11-2013 10:29 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Your talmudic king died at 33 1/2 on a tree on Passover and performing miracles, the son of Mary. So cut it out, please, Ralph.

Yes, but which Passover? Actually, it was the Passover of AD 68 or 69. The Talmud calls Jesus 'bar Kamza', the son of a locust, and it says:

Quote:
The destruction of Jerusalem came through a Kamza and a Bar Kamza in this way. A certain man had a friend Kamza and an enemy Bar Kamza. He once made a party and said to his servant, Go and bring Kamza. The man went and brought Bar Kamza. When the man [who gave the party] found him there he said, See, you tell tales about me; what are you doing here? Get out. Said the other: Since I am here, let me stay, and I will pay you for whatever I eat and drink. Gittin 55

This party or meeting is the same that is mentioned in John 7:1, where Jesus likewise went secretly to the party and was similarly disapproved of. But, as you may notice, it was bar Kamza (Jesus) who was responsible for the destruction of Jerusalem.

In the accounts of Josephus, it was Jesus of Gamala (Izas u Kama) who was blamed for the destruction of Jerusalem. Clearly, Jesus and Jesus-Izas were one and the same person.


R

John 7:1? 7:2 tells us it was Tabernacles, as far removed from Passover as you can be during the year. The other point of disputation would include paying for the meal.
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14-11-2013, 11:31 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(14-11-2013 05:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(13-11-2013 10:31 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You are wandering all over the place here. I'll confine myself to saying this--the Hale Bopp folks had no empirical evidence for beings attached to space comets. The Jews of Jesus's day had empirical documents stating that a miracle worker who had tens of thousands of followers spoke "openly in the Temple and synagogues". There's a huge difference.

You are further being disingenous as a simple review of Wikipedia for the historicity of Jesus affirms that most mainline scholars agree--Jesus of Nazareth was baptized and crucified. You are just struggling with the moral and supernatural aspects of the gospels--that makes sense to me, since you are living as an atheist.


I would call you retarded, but that would be insulting people born with a real disadvantage; you appear to have 'learned' yours.

I have empirical evidence that says that 9-11 was in inside job, orchestrated by the government for their own insidious agenda! Not only that, there are hundreds (if not thousands) that can attest to the fact that they heard rockets and not jets, or that the explosion was just too big to be just jet fuel, or that the steel collapsed too quickly from the heat! I mean, just look at all of the people who signed all of the petitions, all of the people who saw what happened that day and are not satisfied with the official story! Surely that's proof! Congrats, you're a third rate I&I with a god complex. Laughat Or it's only so much smoke and mirrors, and people can see what they want to see and let the evidence be damned.

If your standard of evidence and credulity is so low as to accept that as evidence for the divinity of Jesus, then by rights you should also accept that Jospeh Smith and Muhammad were also prophets of God. The same strength of evidence can be found attesting to the ascension of the Buddha, the existence of Bigfoot or Nessie, statues coming alive to defend the Pantheon in Athens against invaders, and the miracle of levitation performed by countless swami's, guru's, and Las Vegas stage performers.

Also, the consensus of Biblical scholar is that Jesus existed, but also that he was NOT the divine son of god. Chew on that dumbass... Dodgy

Um, mainline scholars affirm the historicity of Jesus but not His actual divinity?! No kidding... Tongue

I accept documentary evidence for Jesus's historicity, further there are OTHER evidences for His divinity inside those documents and outside.

EK, please read my posts more carefully before assuming I'm writing things I really have never written on this forum.

Overall, though, will you and your fellow Cratheists kindly cease-and-desist from posting every three posts or so that Jesus never existed. Or else admit you disagree about a fact that mainline scholars have established.
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14-11-2013, 12:10 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(06-11-2013 03:23 PM)ralphellis Wrote:  
(06-11-2013 02:55 PM)Chas Wrote:  You don't seem to noticed what was bolded - your explanation for the Friday the 13th superstition.
That is what is absurd. Drinking Beverage

Is it?

Critics also said that the linguistic link between the San Greal (Holy Grail) and the Sang Real (Royal Blood) was another contrived modern invention. But I found a reference to the same wordplay in the Vulgate Cycle, dating from the 14th century.

Still working on the history of Friday 13th. But it makes sense, because it is central to all the Templar Knight sects of Masonry, and so the date was hardly 'obscure' as some critics claim.

Templar ritual for the Battle of Roslin (Rosslyn).

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Carry on with your silliness. Drinking Beverage

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14-11-2013, 01:24 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
Interesting.
He bashes "mainline" when it comes to prophecy, yet uses it when convenient.
Intellectual integrity and consistency, he has none.
He also has NEVER ONCE pointed out ONE flaw in the arguments of Dr. Richard Carrier with respect to historicity.
Christard, Cratheist .... meh.
Show me the money.

Jebus is Lard. Thumbsup

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14-11-2013, 01:28 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2013 01:38 PM by Lawls.)
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
I don't really think the the whole "caesar's messiah" thing is true. But I don't think the events in the NT ever happened, ever. I mean seriously, the Jewish council meeting during the Passover because of one man?No. The NT is obvious bunk.


Also, there was the supposed earthquake and "darkening of the sky" after Jebus died, and according to the Bible this wasn't a small earthquake. This earthquake brought the dead back to life and "cracked the earth". Nobody recorded darkened sky, and there is no evidence of earthquakes ever in that area, and obviously no zombies. Really Christians is this what you believe? seriously, zombies?No.
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14-11-2013, 02:15 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(14-11-2013 01:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Interesting.
He bashes "mainline" when it comes to prophecy, yet uses it when convenient.
Intellectual integrity and consistency, he has none.
He also has NEVER ONCE pointed out ONE flaw in the arguments of Dr. Richard Carrier with respect to historicity.
Christard, Cratheist .... meh.
Show me the money.

Jebus is Lard. Thumbsup

Dr. Carrier's On The Historicity Of Jesus is definitely representing a viewpoint. Most scholars agree Jesus is an historical person. And I am consistent. I applaud mainliners for recognizing the historicity of Jesus while not lauding their denial of His divinity.

BB, have you asked yourself why you are unable to write or type Jesus is Lord? Have you consulted with yourself? The Bible seems to indicate you are unfortunately currently undergoing a demonic possession. Be careful!
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14-11-2013, 02:18 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(14-11-2013 01:28 PM)Lawls Wrote:  I don't really think the the whole "caesar's messiah" thing is true. But I don't think the events in the NT ever happened, ever. I mean seriously, the Jewish council meeting during the Passover because of one man?No. The NT is obvious bunk.


Also, there was the supposed earthquake and "darkening of the sky" after Jebus died, and according to the Bible this wasn't a small earthquake. This earthquake brought the dead back to life and "cracked the earth". Nobody recorded darkened sky, and there is no evidence of earthquakes ever in that area, and obviously no zombies. Really Christians is this what you believe? seriously, zombies?No.

The entire council did not meet. There were also dissenters. However, the council could have "been in town" since it was Passover. It's like you're saying there's no way all the cardinals gathered when the Pope was elected or there's no way there were many Nazis in France during the occupation during WW II.

And are you really saying there is no evidence for earthquakes ever near Jerusalem? You must have misspoke there.

As for recording the great darkness, were you wanting to see Twitter or Facebook accounts...? The paucity of ancient accounts about many, many things underscores the veracity, not inaccuracy of the NT accounts. The atheist's famous "no corroboration!" is in part answered by "12 different NT authors!"
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