Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
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14-11-2013, 02:20 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(14-11-2013 02:15 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(14-11-2013 01:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Interesting.
He bashes "mainline" when it comes to prophecy, yet uses it when convenient.
Intellectual integrity and consistency, he has none.
He also has NEVER ONCE pointed out ONE flaw in the arguments of Dr. Richard Carrier with respect to historicity.
Christard, Cratheist .... meh.
Show me the money.

Jebus is Lard. Thumbsup

Dr. Carrier's On The Historicity Of Jesus is definitely representing a viewpoint. Most scholars agree Jesus is an historical person. And I am consistent. I applaud mainliners for recognizing the historicity of Jesus while not lauding their denial of His divinity.

BB, have you asked yourself why you are unable to write or type Jesus is Lord? Have you consulted with yourself? The Bible seems to indicate you are unfortunately currently undergoing a demonic possession. Be careful!

Demonic possession. ClapClapClapClap

You just slay me, PJ.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-11-2013, 02:29 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
Demonic possession?! are you kidding me? Hey PleaseJesus, pray that I am struck down and smote by God tonight, I'm not kidding, pray for my death and then I'll PM you if I'm still aliveWink.
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14-11-2013, 03:24 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
Do I exercise my debil, or exorcise my debil ?
How many reps ? Please be specific.
Is there a pamphlet on that ?
Can I name my debil ?

Debil indeed.
Some people have no shame.
Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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14-11-2013, 03:31 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(14-11-2013 03:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Do I exercise my debil, or exorcise my debil ?
How many reps ? Please be specific.
Is there a pamphlet on that ?
Can I name my debil ?

Debil indeed.
Some people have no shame.
Weeping

Sorry sir, I'm afraid you've been diagnosed with... DEBIL.
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14-11-2013, 03:39 PM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(08-10-2013 08:27 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  New discovery: ancient confessions recently uncovered now prove that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats
and that they fabricated the entire story of Jesus Christ.

http://uk.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11201273.htm

I think we all knew this anyway and it appears, now we have a little evidence.

I also posted this on my fb and I have to admit to some glee as I mentally pop a few balloons that some religious people in my family have.

Without doubt, Atwill will once again be dismissed due to confusing "evidence" with a personal theory.

Him and Humphreys are at the top of my list of religious conspiracy theorists, and both miserably fail the logic and reasoning litmus test.

I mean, it's okay to believe that Jesus didn't exist, but for fuck sakes ... don't insult human intellect by abandoning .... human intellect.

Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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14-11-2013, 11:48 PM (This post was last modified: 15-11-2013 12:16 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(14-11-2013 11:31 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Um, mainline scholars affirm the historicity of Jesus but not His actual divinity?! No kidding... Tongue

Mainline scholarship can, as a simple heuristic, be followed and taken as accurate unless there is good reason to doubt the consensus. There is very good reason to doubt the consensus of biblical scholarship vis-a-vis the historicity of Jesus. Their methods are logically flawed or applied incorrectly. This is why there are dozens of 'historical' versions of Jesus, because there are dozens of scholars that are projecting what they want to see. That's why there is Jesus as a rabbi, apocalyptic prophet, great teacher, 'miracle' worker, charlatan, rebel leader, insurgent, roman spy, etc. If I didn't know any better, I'd think Jesus was a line of action figures (I am half expecting Super-Kung-Fu-Grip Jesus at this point).


(14-11-2013 11:31 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I accept documentary evidence for Jesus's historicity, further there are OTHER evidences for His divinity inside those documents and outside.

You accept the Gospels as evidence, so your opinion is worth less than nothing. It has been explained to you umpteen times why the Gospels cannot be used as evidence for the Gospels. The letters of Paul? Half of them are forgeries, and the 'authentic' ones speak only of visions of a celestial Jesus, nothing that would anchor Jesus in the real word (nothing about his ministry, family, birth, or earthly 'miracles'). The writings of Josephus? At best, written decades after the fact; however they are mostly likely interpolations (as in, Christian scribes added in the passages while making copies) because they don't show up until the 3rd century (Origin berates Josephus for not mentioning Jesus!). Everything after that is simply restating what the Christians already believed, it's not evidence that Jesus existed, it's evidence that they believed he existed. If the fact that people simply believe something is evidence enough PJ, then every religion is true (and you have a shitload more gods to start worshiping).


(14-11-2013 11:31 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  EK, please read my posts more carefully before assuming I'm writing things I really have never written on this forum.

I do read your posts carefully, and it shows that you're an ignorant fundy troll who seriously believes in demonic possession. You are living in Woo-Woo Town, population: You.


(14-11-2013 11:31 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Overall, though, will you and your fellow Cratheists kindly cease-and-desist from posting every three posts or so that Jesus never existed. Or else admit you disagree about a fact that mainline scholars have established.

See my first point above. When it comes to the historicity of Jesus, there is good reason to doubt the consensus; and even if there wasn't there would still be no good reasons or evidence to believe that Jesus (even if he existed) was the divine son of god. So even if latter evidence reveals that a Jesus did exist, Carrier and Ehrman would both still agree that the god-man part of the story is still just a myth.

The problem with historicity is that it is NOT an established fact. It is simply the consensus, and seeing as how most scholars are Christians themselves, those seriously questioning Jesus' historicity have just been soundly 'harrumphed' for decades. Jesus historicity has simply been assumed, and because everyone assumed it, no one has put serious work into questioning it until recently. Now that there is serious work being done by scholars to really question historicity, it's been shown for the massive pile of weak assumptions and bad reasoning it has always been; because it has simply never been harshly scrutinized until now. The same thing happened to the Jewish patriarchs in the 60's and 70's, and unless we can find better evidence for Jesus (which we as of yet do not have), then Jesus will eventually join Moses, Noah, David, and Solomon as fictional mythic figures.

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15-11-2013, 12:06 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
Quote:Um, mainline scholars affirm the historicity of Jesus

And their evidence for that affirmation is ........................................ (sound of crickets chirping.......)

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15-11-2013, 01:46 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(14-11-2013 01:28 PM)Lawls Wrote:  I don't really think the the whole "caesar's messiah" thing is true. But I don't think the events in the NT ever happened, ever. I mean seriously, the Jewish council meeting during the Passover because of one man?No. The NT is obvious bunk.


Also, there was the supposed earthquake and "darkening of the sky" after Jebus died, and according to the Bible this wasn't a small earthquake. This earthquake brought the dead back to life and "cracked the earth". Nobody recorded darkened sky, and there is no evidence of earthquakes ever in that area, and obviously no zombies. Really Christians is this what you believe? seriously, zombies?No.

Hi Lawls.

Have you read "Caesar's Messiah?" I have, a few times actually, and I think there's a lot of merit in his arguments. I've been studying the history of early Christianity for many years, and his explanations make sense to me. I'm not saying everything happened exactly as he says but the basic thrust of his argument, that the Roman government created Christianity, is very plausible.

I was even more convinced when I learned about the Flavians ...particularly Vespasian and his son Titus... They were great propagandists, you may care to listen to Phil Harland's podcasts about them. This fact fit beautifully with the theory that Christianity was created under their supervision as propaganda to undermine the Jews. Atwill doesn't even make this point in his book.

I agree 100% with everything else you've written.
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15-11-2013, 01:55 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(15-11-2013 12:06 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:Um, mainline scholars affirm the historicity of Jesus

And their evidence for that affirmation is ........................................ (sound of crickets chirping.......)

My 2c worth on the existence of an historical Jesus...

The surprising truth is that no contemporary literate official, scribe, merchant, soldier or priest documented details about Jesus that have survived. If he’d preached to thousands, cured cripples, expelled demons, and risen from the dead, surely some of these people would have jotted down some notes about him, but it appears they didn’t.

Despite the dearth of reputable evidence, I think a man named Yeshua probably did exist, and that parts of the Gospel plots are loosely based on his life. My reasoning is as follows.

There is non-biblical evidence for the existence of John the Baptist, Jesus’ cousin, and for James, Jesus’ brother. John and James were leaders of a Jewish sect, the Nazarenes, and many scholars claim Yeshua was their boss between these two, an idea that fits with what we know about Yeshua. The Nazarenes soldiered on for a few centuries after Jesus’ death, weren’t Christians, and there’s evidence from the church fathers’ writings that the Nazarenes believed Yeshua had existed.

Paul, the creator of Christian theology, claimed he met James and Peter, who may have been Yeshua’s brother and disciple. He actually accuses Peter of being a hypocrite, so the passage is unlikely to have been A Christian interpolation.

I propose that Yeshua probably existed, but his life story was far less remarkable than the Gospels would have us believe. I think his genuine historical record, if it ever existed, would have recorded his insignificance, so was destroyed by evangelical Christians sometime in the second, third or fourth centuries.
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15-11-2013, 02:44 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(15-11-2013 01:55 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(15-11-2013 12:06 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  And their evidence for that affirmation is ........................................ (sound of crickets chirping.......)

My 2c worth on the existence of an historical Jesus...

The surprising truth is that no contemporary literate official, scribe, merchant, soldier or priest documented details about Jesus that have survived. If he’d preached to thousands, cured cripples, expelled demons, and risen from the dead, surely some of these people would have jotted down some notes about him, but it appears they didn’t.

Despite the dearth of reputable evidence, I think a man named Yeshua probably did exist, and that parts of the Gospel plots are loosely based on his life. My reasoning is as follows.

There is non-biblical evidence for the existence of John the Baptist, Jesus’ cousin, and for James, Jesus’ brother. John and James were leaders of a Jewish sect, the Nazarenes, and many scholars claim Yeshua was their boss between these two, an idea that fits with what we know about Yeshua. The Nazarenes soldiered on for a few centuries after Jesus’ death, weren’t Christians, and there’s evidence from the church fathers’ writings that the Nazarenes believed Yeshua had existed.

Paul, the creator of Christian theology, claimed he met James and Peter, who may have been Yeshua’s brother and disciple. He actually accuses Peter of being a hypocrite, so the passage is unlikely to have been A Christian interpolation.

I propose that Yeshua probably existed, but his life story was far less remarkable than the Gospels would have us believe. I think his genuine historical record, if it ever existed, would have recorded his insignificance, so was destroyed by evangelical Christians sometime in the second, third or fourth centuries.


And if my understanding is correct, this would be compatible with Carrier's hypothesis that Paul's Jesus (the basis for Christianity) was a celestial being that was the head priest of God's Temple in Heaven and went through a passion somewhere just below the moon. This arose (or was enabled) out of a popular syncretism between the Greek mystery cults and other religions (Christianity/Paulinity being a Jewish mystery cult). That's not to say that this particular mystery cult wasn't part of an Emperor backed propaganda attempt to undermine the rebellious Jews, the two hypothesis don't seem to conflict much at the surface.

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