Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
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10-10-2013, 10:36 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(10-10-2013 10:22 AM)PersephoneK Wrote:  
(10-10-2013 10:10 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Are you feeling well ?
You're using Carrier, who does NOT BELIEVE Jebus existed, in your argument, then you say the argument is a settled matter. Do you even know who Carrier is ?

I said I care about EVIDENCE. Nice try.

No expert has "provided proof" of anything. You made false statements about Josephus. You have MADE NOT ONE argument about the SUBSTANCE of the debate.

We're hardly (even) at an "impasse". So far you have not even BEGUN to make an argument over the SUBSTANCE. All you do is make the "argumentum ad vericundiam" fallacy. You are incompetent, apparently, to even begin a discussion of this subject.

Wow, you're mean.

But anyway, I was using Carrier to debunk Atwill, not that Jesus existed. Its telling that a fellow mythicist doesn't buy what Atwill is selling. The Carrier link was posted on The Thinking Atheist's facebook page today. Thought I'd share for funsies.

Your statement that no expert has provided proof of anything suggests you don't know what you're talking about. What exactly would meet the burden of proof for you?

Have a nice day.

Yeah, it's mean to point out people's inconsistencies and mistakes.
YOUR point was that "scholars" have settled this matter. Carrier IS a scholar, and he disagrees with you. So make up your mind. You can't use him to make your point, and AT THE SAME time, say his views are inauthentic. You are totally inconsistent. Still not one argument over substance.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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10-10-2013, 10:40 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(10-10-2013 10:22 AM)PersephoneK Wrote:  But anyway, I was using Carrier to debunk Atwill, not that Jesus existed. Its telling that a fellow mythicist doesn't buy what Atwill is selling. The Carrier link was posted on The Thinking Atheist's facebook page today. Thought I'd share for funsies.

Hmm... I kind of see what Bucky might be saying although, it's difficult to tell... since I haven't been paying much attention. Blink

I think he's saying, since this Carrier guy actually doesn't believe Jeezy existed at all, he doesn't seem to qualify for being a fellow mythicist of Atwill... he's already made up his mind. So, for Carrier to think Atwill is a kook is just par for the course and therefore, a moot point.

I don't think PersephoneK is incompetent but in fact, has made some good points. Thumbsup

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10-10-2013, 10:48 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
Carrier states in his blog post that he believes Jesus does not exist for his own reasons (which he does not give), but that Atwill's reasoning in reaching that conclusion is dodgy as hell...
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10-10-2013, 10:56 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(10-10-2013 10:36 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yeah, it's mean to point out people's inconsistencies and mistakes.
YOUR point was that "scholars" have settled this matter. Carrier IS a scholar, and he disagrees with you. So make up your mind. You can't use him to make your point, and AT THE SAME time, say his views are inauthentic. You are totally inconsistent. Still not one argument over substance.

Nothing is ever settled, so that was not my point. But one scholar saying Jesus doesn't exist out of the rest of them gives me great pause. I can find people out there who don't believe in evolution as well. Does that mean I shouldn't believe in evolution?

From the evidence that I have read, nothing Atwill says has met the burden of proof to refute what most scholars who are experts in the subject matter would say. Even Carrier, one of the few scholars who agrees with Atwill's conclusions, thinks he has not met the burden of proof. I've never claimed to be a scholar, and I'm not sitting around spending my entire day trying to show you evidence. I rely on what the scholars do say, assuming they can show me why they think so. In my studies on the subject, I have not seen any evidence that meets the burden of proof to prove that Jesus did not exist. In fact, the opposite is true. If evidence comes along later that disproves that conclusion, I'll accept it. But it hasn't. Keep believing in whatever makes you happy despite the evidence. I left religion to stop doing that, but whatever makes you happy.

Do you believe what Atwill is selling? Please say yes, so that I can just ignore everything else you say, like Carrier is basically doing.

"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." ~Rene Descartes.
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10-10-2013, 10:58 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(10-10-2013 10:48 AM)morondog Wrote:  Carrier states in his blog post that he believes Jesus does not exist for his own reasons (which he does not give), but that Atwill's reasoning in reaching that conclusion is dodgy as hell...

Is Carrier acting like PJ in making assertions but not providing evidence?
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10-10-2013, 11:15 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(10-10-2013 10:56 AM)PersephoneK Wrote:  
(10-10-2013 10:36 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yeah, it's mean to point out people's inconsistencies and mistakes.
YOUR point was that "scholars" have settled this matter. Carrier IS a scholar, and he disagrees with you. So make up your mind. You can't use him to make your point, and AT THE SAME time, say his views are inauthentic. You are totally inconsistent. Still not one argument over substance.

Nothing is ever settled, so that was not my point. But one scholar saying Jesus doesn't exist out of the rest of them gives me great pause. I can find people out there who don't believe in evolution as well. Does that mean I shouldn't believe in evolution?

From the evidence that I have read, nothing Atwill says has met the burden of proof to refute what most scholars who are experts in the subject matter would say. Even Carrier, one of the few scholars who agrees with Atwill's conclusions, thinks he has not met the burden of proof. I've never claimed to be a scholar, and I'm not sitting around spending my entire day trying to show you evidence. I rely on what the scholars do say, assuming they can show me why they think so. In my studies on the subject, I have not seen any evidence that meets the burden of proof to prove that Jesus did not exist. In fact, the opposite is true. If evidence comes along later that disproves that conclusion, I'll accept it. But it hasn't. Keep believing in whatever makes you happy despite the evidence. I left religion to stop doing that, but whatever makes you happy.

Do you believe what Atwill is selling? Please say yes, so that I can just ignore everything else you say, like Carrier is basically doing.

As I said above, (if you had bothered to read this thread), I will wait and see. I
am a skeptic. I don't pre-judge. I'll wait and see what he presents.

Your blog piece was an attempt to invalidate the entire discussion. It's there for anyone to read.

You name not one scholar you have studied, except Ehrman, yet keep make sweeping generalizations. From your statements, (the usual Christian clap-trap), concerning the non-Christian sources, it appears you have no real knowledge of the subject. ? "Most scholars say" ? Really ? Show me the poll.
More generalizations. No substance. Nothing in the actual argument addressed.
You have presented not one piece of evidence to believe, (apart from the usual false debunked junk). If they were writing 75 years later, ... no newspapers, no records of ANY kind, Herod's secretary who talks about FAR less important things, yet never mentions this, Philo, who talks about FAR less important things fails to mention this, nd all the other dying and rising gods, who "were a dime a dozen", (Dr. Carole Fontaine), such as Simon of Perea are VERY similar, ... announced by Gabriel, died, and rose in 3 days), you have no "proof" that this one of many Jesuses (Yeshua ben Josef), actually existed.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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10-10-2013, 11:16 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(10-10-2013 10:58 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  
(10-10-2013 10:48 AM)morondog Wrote:  Carrier states in his blog post that he believes Jesus does not exist for his own reasons (which he does not give), but that Atwill's reasoning in reaching that conclusion is dodgy as hell...

Is Carrier acting like PJ in making assertions but not providing evidence?

No. Here's just one lecture (of many) dealing with his assertions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwUZOZN-9dc
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10-10-2013, 11:17 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(10-10-2013 10:58 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  
(10-10-2013 10:48 AM)morondog Wrote:  Carrier states in his blog post that he believes Jesus does not exist for his own reasons (which he does not give), but that Atwill's reasoning in reaching that conclusion is dodgy as hell...

Is Carrier acting like PJ in making assertions but not providing evidence?




Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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10-10-2013, 11:22 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
OMG I HATE JESUS, THIS IS THE BEST CONFIRMATION BIAS EVER! I'll immediately repost to facebook without looking up facts because it sounds good and I like it because it sounds good to me!
/logical fallacy

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10-10-2013, 11:30 AM
RE: Story of Jesus Christ now proven to be a fabrication
(10-10-2013 12:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 08:23 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Philo of Alexandria wrote about 20 - 40 BCE. He is thought by some to have actually been on site, in Jerusalem, during the years Jebus would have had to have been alive. He says nothing about the Jebus Christians believe in. He DOES write about (before Paul), another Jesus. Before/by the time that Jebus was supposed to have been around there were Jews who ALREADY believed in a "celestial being" named "Jesus", who :
1. was the said to be "the first born of God",
2. was made in the "image of god",
3. God's agent of creation".
4. was said to be "the celestial high priest".
So where did Paul, (who said he got his gospel "from no man", but by revelation ALONE) get his Jebus ?
Maybe this one ?
In that context, with all the syncretic elements Atwill points out to the Flavian narrative, it seems it deserves a look.

It's my understanding that this 'celestial Jesus' is the basis for Dr. Richard Carrier's myth theory.


(09-10-2013 09:53 PM)PersephoneK Wrote:  Regarding Carrier, ill let Bart Ehrman discuss him. A little scholar on scholar action is fun. Decide for yourself. http://ehrmanblog.org/fuller-reply-to-richard-carrier/

I have too, and unfortunately Ehrman does not appear to have composed himself very well in their exchange.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/1794

Not sure I agree with you about Ehrman's comportment, but one would get that impression from Carrier's blog. Here's Ehrmans' response to Carrier in which he gives his side of the story and reasons for breaking off the exchange. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Tell me what you think.

http://ehrmanblog.org/fuller-reply-to-richard-carrier/
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