Story of creation and unanswered questions
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08-03-2013, 08:32 AM
RE: Story of creation and unanswered questions
(08-03-2013 08:24 AM)AtheismExposed Wrote:  
(08-03-2013 07:00 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  "Before Eve's sin the human genome
wasn't mutable as it is today. Illness caused by inbreeding wasn't an
issue before the fall, so it was applicable."

Evidence?
Because the harm of incest isn't mentioned to Adam and Eve, and yet by the times of Noah and Lot it is known and incest is portrayed as a negative thing.

Before the fall of man - incest isn't mentioned because it isn't a problem
After the fall of man - incest is known to be harmful because human DNA became less perfect upon banishment from the Garden.
That's nice but, do you have evidence?

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08-03-2013, 10:49 AM
RE: Story of creation and unanswered questions
(08-03-2013 08:24 AM)AtheismExposed Wrote:  
(08-03-2013 07:00 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  "Before Eve's sin the human genome
wasn't mutable as it is today. Illness caused by inbreeding wasn't an
issue before the fall, so it was applicable."

Evidence?
Because the harm of incest isn't mentioned to Adam and Eve, and yet by the times of Noah and Lot it is known and incest is portrayed as a negative thing.

Before the fall of man - incest isn't mentioned because it isn't a problem
After the fall of man - incest is known to be harmful because human DNA became less perfect upon banishment from the Garden.


Was it a social taboo? Yes. Was it a taboo because they knew of it's deleterious effect on DNA? Are you that fucking stupid? Wait, redundant question...

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08-03-2013, 10:57 AM
RE: Story of creation and unanswered questions
(07-02-2013 05:53 AM)AtheismExposed Wrote:  
(07-02-2013 12:46 AM)pxlgirl Wrote:  Ok... so now that I (shockingly) found out that christians take the story of creation for a fact, a few unanswered questions came to my mind that I had when I was a kid. No one was able to give me a plausible answer back then, apart from saying the usual like "god works in mysterious ways" if they ran out of arguments. Looking at other made up stories, like the ones involving aliens do sound crazy and are anything but true, yet they sound plausible within their own conception. Christianity lacks that plausibility from the very core, so for the sake of the argument, lets pretend it was consistant and plausible and point out the outcomes.

Day 1, god lets there be light, night and days -> what kind of light? Neither the stars and the moon, nor the sun has been created yet. So what determines day and night anyway? And what about all the other planets? Oh, they weren't known yet.

Day 2, god creates the skies -> Now the question becomes, if there were no skies before day 1, what was it then? You can't create "something out of nothing", right?

Day 3, god creates land plants and trees -> How are plants and trees supposed to grow without a sun? It still hasn't been created yet. Books often show already fully grown plants and trees, but once you plant seeds in your garden, you quickly notice that they need quite a bit of time to grow, some more some less. And they all need sunlight. Otherwise, put one of your plants in a dark place and see what happens.

Day 4, god creates the sun, moon and stars and... day and night -> Wait, wasn't the day and night part covered on day 1 already?

Day 5, god created other every living creature and gave life to water and skies -> There's life in the skies? I thought it's only clouds, unless they count as life too. Birds don't live in the skies either, so what could it have been?

Day 6, god created 2 caucasian humans, a male and a female by the names Adam and Eve, who was created either Adam's rib or a piece of dirt, feel free to pick one. He gave them even more creatures (like... lap dogs?) and now they were free to exploit and ruin the planet.

Day 7, god gets freaking tired and needs some sleep...

Meanwhile, on earth, Adam and Eve get on with their lives, do what most couples would do in their spare time. They were lucky enough to get away with it even though they were unmarried, but what had to happen, happened anyway. Since condoms weren't invented yet, Eve got pregnant and gave birth to 2 boys. I'm not sure when the incident with the talking snake and the forbidden fruit took place, but that doesn't really matter. Eve was fucked either way, in the truest sense of the word. Apart from the big question how other ethnical groups came to life, one would wonder how Adam, Eve and the 2 boys would replicate each other. Since there are no mentions of other children Eve had with Adam, the only way to populate the earth was Eve to be banged by one or both of her sons. Apart from the short life span adults had at that time, a risky pregnancy there's only a a 50/50 chance to give birth to another female, who then later would be banged by her (grand)father, if he still happens to be alive and/or of course her brothers. And here's where the story comes to an ends before it started: Depending on which gender will overrun the "population", it might work for at most one generation, but regarding the low life span of adults in general at that time, plus the high infant mortality due to genetic deformation as a result of incest, rather sooner than later: GAME OVER.

So... I guess it's time for christianity to make up some better shit.
1 and 3 go together, in a way. "How do plants grow without a sun?" there was light created two days earlier. If you've ever grown any plants indoors you'll know they don't specifically need sunlight
so much as a light source in general. Smile

"Day 2, god creates the skies -> Now the question becomes, if there
were no skies before day 1, what was it then? You can't create
"something out of nothing", right?"

Before there is structure in the universe, there is God. How can you reject this but accept big bangism and the idea that an explosion made time and space and dimensions and matter from nothing?

Day 4, have you never seen a construction crew using temporary floodlights while they build a road with its own streetlights? Also this one mainly refers to the diurnal cycle of the sun and moon's rotation about us.

Day 5, "birds don't live in the skies"? well no, but they do appear in the skies from time to time. That's a pretty big stretch if you want to try and poke holes in it.

Define "existence", and "sentience", and don't invoke ANY term which involves space(time). In fact your god requires "structure". That means she didn't create Reality. "Existence" IS structure, (vs non-existence). Your argument is specious, and ignores at least two fundamental flaws.

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08-03-2013, 11:19 AM
RE: Story of creation and unanswered questions
(07-02-2013 12:46 AM)pxlgirl Wrote:  Ok... so now that I (shockingly) found out that christians take the story of creation for a fact, a few unanswered questions came to my mind that I had when I was a kid. No one was able to give me a plausible answer back then, apart from saying the usual like "god works in mysterious ways" if they ran out of arguments. Looking at other made up stories, like the ones involving aliens do sound crazy and are anything but true, yet they sound plausible within their own conception. Christianity lacks that plausibility from the very core, so for the sake of the argument, lets pretend it was consistant and plausible and point out the outcomes.

Day 1, god lets there be light, night and days -> what kind of light? Neither the stars and the moon, nor the sun has been created yet. So what determines day and night anyway? And what about all the other planets? Oh, they weren't known yet.

Day 2, god creates the skies -> Now the question becomes, if there were no skies before day 1, what was it then? You can't create "something out of nothing", right?

Day 3, god creates land plants and trees -> How are plants and trees supposed to grow without a sun? It still hasn't been created yet. Books often show already fully grown plants and trees, but once you plant seeds in your garden, you quickly notice that they need quite a bit of time to grow, some more some less. And they all need sunlight. Otherwise, put one of your plants in a dark place and see what happens.

Day 4, god creates the sun, moon and stars and... day and night -> Wait, wasn't the day and night part covered on day 1 already?

Day 5, god created other every living creature and gave life to water and skies -> There's life in the skies? I thought it's only clouds, unless they count as life too. Birds don't live in the skies either, so what could it have been?

Day 6, god created 2 caucasian humans, a male and a female by the names Adam and Eve, who was created either Adam's rib or a piece of dirt, feel free to pick one. He gave them even more creatures (like... lap dogs?) and now they were free to exploit and ruin the planet.

Day 7, god gets freaking tired and needs some sleep...

Meanwhile, on earth, Adam and Eve get on with their lives, do what most couples would do in their spare time. They were lucky enough to get away with it even though they were unmarried, but what had to happen, happened anyway. Since condoms weren't invented yet, Eve got pregnant and gave birth to 2 boys. I'm not sure when the incident with the talking snake and the forbidden fruit took place, but that doesn't really matter. Eve was fucked either way, in the truest sense of the word. Apart from the big question how other ethnical groups came to life, one would wonder how Adam, Eve and the 2 boys would replicate each other. Since there are no mentions of other children Eve had with Adam, the only way to populate the earth was Eve to be banged by one or both of her sons. Apart from the short life span adults had at that time, a risky pregnancy there's only a a 50/50 chance to give birth to another female, who then later would be banged by her (grand)father, if he still happens to be alive and/or of course her brothers. And here's where the story comes to an ends before it started: Depending on which gender will overrun the "population", it might work for at most one generation, but regarding the low life span of adults in general at that time, plus the high infant mortality due to genetic deformation as a result of incest, rather sooner than later: GAME OVER.

So... I guess it's time for christianity to make up some better shit.


I just have one thing to take issues with.

"what kind of light? Neither the stars and the moon, nor the sun has been created yet."

You don't need stars to make light. As can be shown by using a light bulb. While there are many things that are wrong about the bible, including some that you mentioned. Things like the moon being a source of light and plants or even the earth existing before the sun. I think we should make sure that we have our own facts right when challenging bible literalist.

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08-03-2013, 11:28 AM
RE: Story of creation and unanswered questions
(08-03-2013 08:24 AM)AtheismExposed Wrote:  
(08-03-2013 07:00 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  "Before Eve's sin the human genome
wasn't mutable as it is today. Illness caused by inbreeding wasn't an
issue before the fall, so it was applicable."

Evidence?
Because the harm of incest isn't mentioned to Adam and Eve, and yet by the times of Noah and Lot it is known and incest is portrayed as a negative thing.

Before the fall of man - incest isn't mentioned because it isn't a problem
After the fall of man - incest is known to be harmful because human DNA became less perfect upon banishment from the Garden.
Curious. Assuming your position, why would incest go from being okay to harmful when there was no reason for god to change the rules? It wasn't because of any sin since sin first appeared when there was only two people on the planet. So why would god decide to make incest good then bad? Considering that the bad incest generally results in bad mutations that hurt the child. What good reason would god have for changing the rules?

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08-03-2013, 11:38 AM
RE: Story of creation and unanswered questions
Isn't this a moot point?

"Before eve's sin"... There could not be incest before eve's sin because only two people existed. I suppose if Eve is cloned from Adam's rib then their DNA would be too similar and it might be called incest, but if they were both made together from the dust, there's no proof they're related. Either way, God evidently planned on having them produce offspring so I'll accept that he made them different enough for them to do so safely (assuming I accept any of this silly myth, which I don't, but that's beside the point).

So, if god made Adam and Eve to be sexually compatible and capable of producing viable offspring, and Eve sinned BEFORE they had any children, then there could not have been any incest prior to that sin.

Impossible.

All you've done, AtheismExposed, is make up a silly rationalization to explain something that didn't need explaining, but you didn't think it through, you just jumped in with both feet and made yourself look foolish.

Don't worry, it happens to every apologist...

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08-03-2013, 11:47 AM
RE: Story of creation and unanswered questions
(07-03-2013 11:17 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 05:45 PM)mrbuddy4413 Wrote:  Not necessarily. Genocide was ordered a few times for specific purposes. The OT laws are not followed now because we are under the New Covenant.


What do you mean 'we'?

I am under no covenant.

The "new covenant" thingy is completely capritious. Saul of Tarsus said they were free from the old law, unless it was convenient for him to invoke it, (ie with respect to homosexuality or women). He was as fexible and changeable as rubber on that point. Whenever it was useful, he invoked the old law, when it wasn't he said they were free from it. But what did you expect from the founder of the great religion Christianity Paulianity

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Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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08-03-2013, 01:08 PM
RE: Story of creation and unanswered questions
(07-03-2013 11:35 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 05:45 PM)mrbuddy4413 Wrote:  Not necessarily. Genocide was ordered a few times for specific purposes. The OT laws are not followed now because we are under the New Covenant.
Then explain Matthew 5:17-20 (NAS)
Not my words, from another blog, but very good.

Jesus said that He “fulfilled” both the Law and the Prophets. There
were three aspects to Jewish law: 1) ceremonial (ordinances–the
spiritual code which was Old Testament Christology. The Tabernacle, Holy
Days, Levitical Officers are included in this. Jesus fulfilled the
ceremonial law, for example, as the Lamb of God or the Temple itself
(the place of worship). The book of Hebrews argues that since the
anti-type has come, there is no more need for a type (sacrificial lamb).
2) moral (commandments such as the Ten Commandments); the moral code
never changes because morality is manifestation of the character of God
which never changes, Jesus lived a perfect life in His humanity
fulfilling the moral law. Since we are “in Him” we have perfectly
fulfilled the moral law. 3) The judgments (the social code for the
nation; these are questions of diet, taxation, divorce, marriage, etc).
The judgments were social standards for living in the national economy
of Israel. Jesus took all judgment upon Himself for our sin. He became a
“curse” for us.

Since Jesus fulfilled the law(Mt 5:17) by living perfectly under it,
the believer is not under the law; Jesus made an end to the law for
believers (Ro 10:4). The law cannot provide justification (Ga 2:16; Ro
3:20, 28; Ac 13:39; Phil 3:9). The law cannot “give life” (Ga 3:21).
Only Jesus can do that (see my study of the book of Galatians).

It is very important not to confuse God’s purpose for a national
entity and God’s purpose for the church. These are two very different
economies.
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09-03-2013, 09:05 AM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2013 11:52 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Story of creation and unanswered questions
(08-03-2013 01:08 PM)mrbuddy4413 Wrote:  
(07-03-2013 11:35 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Then explain Matthew 5:17-20 (NAS)
Not my words, from another blog, but very good.

Jesus said that He “fulfilled” both the Law and the Prophets. There
were three aspects to Jewish law: 1) ceremonial (ordinances–the
spiritual code which was Old Testament Christology. The Tabernacle, Holy
Days, Levitical Officers are included in this. Jesus fulfilled the
ceremonial law, for example, as the Lamb of God or the Temple itself
(the place of worship). The book of Hebrews argues that since the
anti-type has come, there is no more need for a type (sacrificial lamb).
2) moral (commandments such as the Ten Commandments); the moral code
never changes because morality is manifestation of the character of God
which never changes, Jesus lived a perfect life in His humanity
fulfilling the moral law. Since we are “in Him” we have perfectly
fulfilled the moral law. 3) The judgments (the social code for the
nation; these are questions of diet, taxation, divorce, marriage, etc).
The judgments were social standards for living in the national economy
of Israel. Jesus took all judgment upon Himself for our sin. He became a
“curse” for us.

Since Jesus fulfilled the law(Mt 5:17) by living perfectly under it,
the believer is not under the law; Jesus made an end to the law for
believers (Ro 10:4). The law cannot provide justification (Ga 2:16; Ro
3:20, 28; Ac 13:39; Phil 3:9). The law cannot “give life” (Ga 3:21).
Only Jesus can do that (see my study of the book of Galatians).

It is very important not to confuse God’s purpose for a national
entity and God’s purpose for the church. These are two very different
economies.


I am not familiar enough to argue the direct points you've asserted, so I won't. Then again, you admittedly just copied what somebody else said, so be it. If you want to try to explain it in plainer English, go ahead. I'll wait and see if I can't get BuckyBall's take on what you said, as he's far more well versed on the subject.


Regardless, I love how apologists can take the most simple of things and take them to Olympic levels of mental gymnastics. One has to wonder why God requires Christian apologists to work through all of this presumptuous bullshit, to make sure that the followers then get the correct message. Could God not have given it unambiguously in the first place? Humans are capable of such, why can't God? My reading and interpretation is perfectly valid with a straight reading of what the passage actually says. Your example is valid to you, because it jumps through half a dozen hoops in an attempt to justify your preconceived assertion.


Like I said, one has to wonder why God's message need an interpreter...

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14-03-2013, 11:10 AM
RE: Story of creation and unanswered questions
Quote:Since there are no mentions of other children Eve had with Adam
Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

Supposedly Eve was Seth's mother.

Quote:the only way to populate the earth was Eve to be banged by one or both of her sons.
Genesis 4:17 And Cain knew his wife;

Supposedly Cain's wife was not his mother Eve. So where did she come from?

Quote:regarding the low life span of adults in general at that time
5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
5:6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
5:7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
5:9 And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
5:10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
5:12 And Cainan lived seventy years and begat Mahalaleel:
5:13 And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
5:15 And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
5:16 And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
5:18 And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch:
5:19 And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
5:22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
5:25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech.
5:26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
5:28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
5:30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
5:32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Quote:Apart from the big question how other ethnical groups came to life
Supposedly each of Noah's sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, fathered one of the three racial groups: Caucasian, Negroid, Mongoloid. As far as I know this explanation of the origins of race is not in the Bible but is taught by some denominations.

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

-- Robert Frost
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