Street Epistimology in a Christian College
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29-07-2017, 05:28 PM
RE: Street Epistimology in a Christian College
(29-07-2017 12:42 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  In my opinion, as long as you're getting what you want/need out of going there, I wouldn't worry about it being Christian. As others have said, I'd research how well respected the qualifications are from that particular establishment.



There's no requirement for you to challenge any of the bullshit they shoehorn in, or to tackle any of the Christian students, unless you want to of course. I would highly advise against hassling random students into some sort of discussion, that's more likely to be counter-productive. But making some sort of general challenge or using any formal debate structures they have could prove interesting if that's your kind of thing. I also wouldn't go in with the expectation that you'll change anyone's mind, at least initially. You may, however, plant seeds of rationality/doubt which may grow into something in years to come.

Now that I think about it I agree with you. I am curious what I could do to plant some seeds of doubt though without my atheism looking so obvious? Thank you!

" That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
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29-07-2017, 08:08 PM
RE: Street Epistimology in a Christian College
"I am curious what I could do to plant some seeds of doubt though without my atheism looking so obvious? Thank you!"

Okay, now I'm puzzled. My question would be, why? How is going to a "Christian College" with a preset goal of "planting seeds of doubt" really different in any major way from the religious proselytizers who show up unwelcome on my doorstep? How is that not an unwelcome pushing of your own belief system upon people who are happy with their own chosen belief systems in an environment where they should not have to expect it? If you are planning on going to a college supported by government funds and find yourself besieged with religious symbols and pushers, then I would applaud your courage to fight it (separation of church and state) but if you are being fed/housed/educated by funds that ultimately come from a church/Christian source, how is it wise to bite the hand that feeds you? And why would you self-impose the responsibility to convert believers into non-believers?

I'm not saying you should hide your atheism. (Go ahead, those who know me better here, call me a hypocrite and/or coward since we all know I am only partially out-of-the-atheist-closet, I fully accept that criticism. It is true and warranted. Yep, do as I say, not as I do...) If your roommate asks you to go to services, explain that you are atheist and answer any questions honestly. But really, your *job* here is to study, get the best grades possible and be the best athlete you can be. Not to go into a Christian environment with the predetermined intention of pushing your own religious beliefs on anyone else. Not your job to save the rest of the world from itself. Personally I would be just as unappreciative of a door-to-door atheist on my doorstep looking to assume that they need to convert me to atheism as I am to the door-to-door Christianity peddlers assuming I should be converted to their brand of religious belief. If you are concerned about the possibility of a Christian college trying to shove Christianity down your throat and want them to respect your atheism, shouldn't that go both ways and you would respect those who don't share your beliefs enough to not go into this determined to change theirs?

Shorter answer...I don't think there IS a way to achieve what you are saying WITHOUT "looking so obvious." If you find a way, please share it with me. I still want very much to be able to find the courage simply to pursue an insistence on secular invocations at my (bible-belt) town's board meetings....without getting a cross burned in my yard. I won't be going into that meeting thinking I am going to change anyone's religious beliefs, or trying to. Just standing up for mine. There is a big difference.

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29-07-2017, 09:06 PM
RE: Street Epistimology in a Christian College
I can understand why you'd want to go to a college with a good reputation and a lot of financial aid. Congratulations on your scholarship!

I don't understand why you would want to evangelize for atheism there, or anywhere else. Do you like it when Christians start up a conversation with you with the intent of converting you to their brand of religion? If you do enjoy this and want to have arguments about religious philosophy 24/7, then ignore the rest of this post. However, if you would find this offensive when done to yourself, please don't do it to other people.

I can remember being in college in my Old Testament as Literature class. This would have been a great class, except for one student: the evangelical who wouldn't stop arguing with the professor about how we should read the Bible literally and on our knees. The rest of us rolled our eyes at the waste of time. He didn't win any converts, and just made the rest of us avoid him.

I also remember numerous conversations-with-agendas over the years that involved people trying to work the subject over to Jesus. These are sales conversations and are always unwelcome, because it is clear that you and your opinions are of no import. The objective is to tick off another soul for the Lord.

I also worry that if you make arguing people into atheism a prime objective, you could be putting your scholarship at risk.
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29-07-2017, 11:00 PM (This post was last modified: 29-07-2017 11:06 PM by goldenarm.)
RE: Street Epistimology in a Christian College
(29-07-2017 08:08 PM)outtathereligioncloset Wrote:  "I am curious what I could do to plant some seeds of doubt though without my atheism looking so obvious? Thank you!"

Okay, now I'm puzzled. My question would be, why? How is going to a "Christian College" with a preset goal of "planting seeds of doubt" really different in any major way from the religious proselytizers who show up unwelcome on my doorstep? How is that not an unwelcome pushing of your own belief system upon people who are happy with their own chosen belief systems in an environment where they should not have to expect it? If you are planning on going to a college supported by government funds and find yourself besieged with religious symbols and pushers, then I would applaud your courage to fight it (separation of church and state) but if you are being fed/housed/educated by funds that ultimately come from a church/Christian source, how is it wise to bite the hand that feeds you? And why would you self-impose the responsibility to convert believers into non-believers?


I'm not saying you should hide your atheism. (Go ahead, those who know me better here, call me a hypocrite and/or coward since we all know I am only partially out-of-the-atheist-closet, I fully accept that criticism. It is true and warranted. Yep, do as I say, not as I do...) If your roommate asks you to go to services, explain that you are atheist and answer any questions honestly. But really, your *job* here is to study, get the best grades possible and be the best athlete you can be. Not to go into a Christian environment with the predetermined intention of pushing your own religious beliefs on anyone else. Not your job to save the rest of the world from itself. Personally I would be just as unappreciative of a door-to-door atheist on my doorstep looking to assume that they need to convert me to atheism as I am to the door-to-door Christianity peddlers assuming I should be converted to their brand of religious belief. If you are concerned about the possibility of a Christian college trying to shove Christianity down your throat and want them to respect your atheism, shouldn't that go both ways and you would respect those who don't share your beliefs enough to not go into this determined to change theirs

.

Shorter answer...I don't think there IS a way to achieve what you are saying WITHOUT "looking so obvious." If you find a way, please share it with me. I still want very much to be able to find the courage simply to pursue an insistence on secular invocations at my (bible-belt) town's board meetings....without getting a cross burned in my yard. I won't be going into that meeting thinking I am going to change anyone's religious beliefs, or trying to. Just standing up for mine. There is a big difference.

Ignore this response I'm not sure how to delete it. Just read the next one!

" That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
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29-07-2017, 11:03 PM
RE: Street Epistimology in a Christian College
(29-07-2017 11:00 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  
(29-07-2017 08:08 PM)outtathereligioncloset Wrote:  "I am curious what I could do to plant some seeds of doubt though without my atheism looking so obvious? Thank you!"

Okay, now I'm puzzled. My question would be, why? How is going to a "Christian College" with a preset goal of "planting seeds of doubt" really different in any major way from the religious proselytizers who show up unwelcome on my doorstep? How is that not an unwelcome pushing of your own belief system upon people who are happy with their own chosen belief systems in an environment where they should not have to expect it? If you are planning on going to a college supported by government funds and find yourself besieged with religious symbols and pushers, then I would applaud your courage to fight it (separation of church and state) but if you are being fed/housed/educated by funds that ultimately come from a church/Christian source, how is it wise to bite the hand that feeds you? And why would you self-impose the responsibility to convert believers into non-believers?

I'm not saying you should hide your atheism. (Go ahead, those who know me better here, call me a hypocrite and/or coward since we all know I am only partially out-of-the-atheist-closet, I fully accept that criticism. It is true and warranted. Yep, do as I say, not as I do...) If your roommate asks you to go to services, explain that you are atheist and answer any questions honestly. But really, your *job* here is to study, get the best grades possible and be the best athlete you can be. Not to go into a Christian environment with the predetermined intention of pushing your own religious beliefs on anyone else. Not your job to save the rest of the world from itself. Personally I would be just as unappreciative of a door-to-door atheist on my doorstep looking to assume that they need to convert me to atheism as I am to the door-to-door Christianity peddlers assuming I should be converted to their brand of religious belief. If you are concerned about the possibility of a Christian college trying to shove Christianity down your throat and want them to respect your atheism, shouldn't that go both ways and you would respect those who don't share your beliefs enough to not go into this determined to change theirs


Shorter answer...I don't think there IS a way to achieve what you are saying WITHOUT "looking so obvious." If you find a way, please share it with me. I still want very much to be able to find the courage simply to pursue an insistence on secular invocations at my (bible-belt) town's board meetings....without getting a cross burned in my yard. I won't be going into that meeting thinking I am going to change anyone's religious beliefs, or trying to. Just standing up for mine. There is a big difference.

You are right I am wrong in that regard. I need to distinguish between standing up for my rights and forcing my beliefs on others. And like you said it's a Christian source giving me my daily needs so that would be dumb on my part no doubt.

I understand now. My thing I guess is I want to do what's right. I know I need to respect people's beliefs and I would love to come fully out of the closet one day. I don't want to proselytize, but at the same time I've always wondered if there was a way I could help the secular community promote some good things that religious people are against such as proper sex education?

How do you feel about debates? I mean public debates like what Matt Dillahunty does or what Hitchens did? I won't be upset at your opinion.

Thank you for the response. I agree with you on what you said. I was wrong

" That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
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29-07-2017, 11:11 PM
RE: Street Epistimology in a Christian College
(29-07-2017 09:06 PM)julep Wrote:  I can understand why you'd want to go to a college with a good reputation and a lot of financial aid. Congratulations on your scholarship!

I don't understand why you would want to evangelize for atheism there, or anywhere else. Do you like it when Christians start up a conversation with you with the intent of converting you to their brand of religion? If you do enjoy this and want to have arguments about religious philosophy 24/7, then ignore the rest of this post. However, if you would find this offensive when done to yourself, please don't do it to other people.

I can remember being in college in my Old Testament as Literature class. This would have been a great class, except for one student: the evangelical who wouldn't stop arguing with the professor about how we should read the Bible literally and on our knees. The rest of us rolled our eyes at the waste of time. He didn't win any converts, and just made the rest of us avoid him.

I also remember numerous conversations-with-agendas over the years that involved people trying to work the subject over to Jesus. These are sales conversations and are always unwelcome, because it is clear that you and your opinions are of no import. The objective is to tick off another soul for the Lord.

I also worry that if you make arguing people into atheism a prime objective, you could be putting your scholarship at risk.

Thank you so much! I appreciate the understanding and kindness.

As I said in the last response you all are right. I don't need to evangelize.

That is true what you said about losing my scholarship. Not worth it. I want to ask you, however, what I asked the last person regarding secular humanism and debates. Is debating with a willing Christian like Matt Dillahunty does the same thing? Also what about romp ting secular humanism? Would you say there is a difference in calling out religious "bullshit" that causes people harm and evangelizing atheism the same thing or different? Serious question and I'm wondering your opinion? ThanksSmile

" That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
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29-07-2017, 11:29 PM
RE: Street Epistimology in a Christian College
(29-07-2017 05:28 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  
(29-07-2017 12:42 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  In my opinion, as long as you're getting what you want/need out of going there, I wouldn't worry about it being Christian. As others have said, I'd research how well respected the qualifications are from that particular establishment.



There's no requirement for you to challenge any of the bullshit they shoehorn in, or to tackle any of the Christian students, unless you want to of course. I would highly advise against hassling random students into some sort of discussion, that's more likely to be counter-productive. But making some sort of general challenge or using any formal debate structures they have could prove interesting if that's your kind of thing. I also wouldn't go in with the expectation that you'll change anyone's mind, at least initially. You may, however, plant seeds of rationality/doubt which may grow into something in years to come.

Now that I think about it I agree with you. I am curious what I could do to plant some seeds of doubt though without my atheism looking so obvious? Thank you!

I agree with what outta has said. I appreciate that you want to save these people from their ridiculous beliefs, but you don't want to come off as a preacher. There's no need to hide your atheism, but I certainly wouldn't recommend going round announcing it either. Opportunities for conversations with individuals may develop naturally, but it's not something you can count on.

I put my passion into making a YouTube channel, to try and spread good ideas and to encourage people to think. Maybe you could do something like that? Then you could potentially reach a much wider audience. The important part is that people are coming to you to listen because they want to, which is automatically the case with YouTube.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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29-07-2017, 11:36 PM
RE: Street Epistimology in a Christian College
(29-07-2017 11:29 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  
(29-07-2017 05:28 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  Now that I think about it I agree with you. I am curious what I could do to plant some seeds of doubt though without my atheism looking so obvious? Thank you!

I agree with what outta has said. I appreciate that you want to save these people from their ridiculous beliefs, but you don't want to come off as a preacher. There's no need to hide your atheism, but I certainly wouldn't recommend going round announcing it either. Opportunities for conversations with individuals may develop naturally, but it's not something you can count on.

I put my passion into making a YouTube channel, to try and spread good ideas and to encourage people to think. Maybe you could do something like that? Then you could potentially reach a much wider audience. The important part is that people are coming to you to listen because they want to, which is automatically the case with YouTube.

That's a good idea I like that. Stand up for my beliefs, but don't force them on others. A YouTube channel would be great too bevause I could share my thoughts with people who want to watch my content (like you said). Thank you!

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29-07-2017, 11:48 PM
RE: Street Epistimology in a Christian College
(29-07-2017 11:36 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  
(29-07-2017 11:29 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  I agree with what outta has said. I appreciate that you want to save these people from their ridiculous beliefs, but you don't want to come off as a preacher. There's no need to hide your atheism, but I certainly wouldn't recommend going round announcing it either. Opportunities for conversations with individuals may develop naturally, but it's not something you can count on.

I put my passion into making a YouTube channel, to try and spread good ideas and to encourage people to think. Maybe you could do something like that? Then you could potentially reach a much wider audience. The important part is that people are coming to you to listen because they want to, which is automatically the case with YouTube.

That's a good idea I like that. Stand up for my beliefs, but don't force them on others. A YouTube channel would be great too bevause I could share my thoughts with people who want to watch my content (like you said). Thank you!

My pleasure! I wish you all the best with it if you go ahead Smile

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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30-07-2017, 04:54 AM
RE: Street Epistimology in a Christian College
(29-07-2017 11:11 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  
(29-07-2017 09:06 PM)julep Wrote:  I can understand why you'd want to go to a college with a good reputation and a lot of financial aid. Congratulations on your scholarship!

I don't understand why you would want to evangelize for atheism there, or anywhere else. Do you like it when Christians start up a conversation with you with the intent of converting you to their brand of religion? If you do enjoy this and want to have arguments about religious philosophy 24/7, then ignore the rest of this post. However, if you would find this offensive when done to yourself, please don't do it to other people.

I can remember being in college in my Old Testament as Literature class. This would have been a great class, except for one student: the evangelical who wouldn't stop arguing with the professor about how we should read the Bible literally and on our knees. The rest of us rolled our eyes at the waste of time. He didn't win any converts, and just made the rest of us avoid him.

I also remember numerous conversations-with-agendas over the years that involved people trying to work the subject over to Jesus. These are sales conversations and are always unwelcome, because it is clear that you and your opinions are of no import. The objective is to tick off another soul for the Lord.

I also worry that if you make arguing people into atheism a prime objective, you could be putting your scholarship at risk.

Thank you so much! I appreciate the understanding and kindness.

As I said in the last response you all are right. I don't need to evangelize.

That is true what you said about losing my scholarship. Not worth it. I want to ask you, however, what I asked the last person regarding secular humanism and debates. Is debating with a willing Christian like Matt Dillahunty does the same thing? Also what about romp ting secular humanism? Would you say there is a difference in calling out religious "bullshit" that causes people harm and evangelizing atheism the same thing or different? Serious question and I'm wondering your opinion? ThanksSmile

Debating with a willing Christian is more of an intellectual than evangelical exercise, and it's fine with me. However, again, that might be something that could be risky while while you're on scholarship at a Christian college.

Regarding calling out religious bullshit that causes people harm, that's such a broad definition that it could encompass all religion. The objectionable assumption underlying all evangelism (religious, atheistic, dietary, etc.) is that the people who don't share one's views are either ignorant or morally defective, with no gray area in between. It can be difficult, when I'm passionate about something, to accept that a rational, ethical person can listen to my arguments, understand them, and still reject them. Yet this is often the case.

I don't intend to discourage you from discussing religious issues in college. That would require you to shut down your personality. It's wonderful to discuss ideas with your friends in order to get to a bigger understanding of them as people and of the ideas themselves, and to test your understanding of your own ideas as you share them. That's very different from trying to steer conversations in a direction where you can implant those "seeds of doubt." The latter becomes a sales pitch for your tribe.

I hope I've clarified a little. (maybe not)
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