String theory
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01-05-2013, 04:53 AM
RE: String theory
(01-05-2013 04:18 AM)ReasonandScience Wrote:  ...a problem with isotope dating rocks and that it was inaccurate...

Yeah, because 4.5 billion years could be six thousand years... Dodgy

Whatever happened "through faith alone" with these people? Can't trust them to interpret their own texts correctly, we're gonna value their opinion on ours? Consider

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01-05-2013, 05:35 AM
RE: String theory
(01-05-2013 03:43 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(01-05-2013 03:03 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Who the fuck let I&I into the science section? Angry

And WTF, string theory? Ya don't know WTF yer talking about, why the fuck you talking about it? Consider

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01-05-2013, 09:46 PM
RE: String theory
(01-05-2013 02:05 AM)ReasonandScience Wrote:  He would say that god is outside of space and time because he created both. Either that or that god has always existed and never needed a creator. This is a conversation we have had a few times and I have asked him that question and he responded with both of those answers in 2 different conversations

But that same logic can be applied to anything.
ie: Strings were always and have always been there.
Strings are outside of time and space and so don't need a creator.

Whatever argument he says for God did this or god did that just replace God with "strings" and when he asks where strings come from just replace strings with where did God come from. ie: Just replace "God" for scientific things

God can't explain where everything came from the same as scientists can't explain it.
But at least scientists don't claim to know or even when theories are formed they admit that they're only theories.

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01-05-2013, 10:14 PM
RE: String theory
Hey, string theory's a fine theory. It's not like there are other explanations for why there's stuff.

I mean, most observable things in the universe seem to be able to be characterized as vibrations and harmonics. So, why not suppose that the most fundamental things we see (subatomic particles and their interactions) are themselves actually the (different types of) vibrations of some unifying fundamental type of object. 'Strings' is as good a word as any (which is to say, not a very good one - WELCOME TO MODERN PHYSICS), because they each vibrate in some ways and not others. Strings (idealized strings) can't vibrate longitudinally or rotationally, only transversely; string theory strings exist in a world of extra dimensions, but the principles we construct the theory from are the same - these are objects which are well-defined in, and vibrate in, only one dimension.

But string theory is arcane and untestable even compared to my field. So don't quote me on any of that.
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01-05-2013, 10:38 PM
RE: String theory
Multi dimensions is by far the most fucking stupid thing scientists have ever come up with, IMO.

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01-05-2013, 10:53 PM
RE: String theory
That would be stopping down to their level and stating something that no human being can possibly know at this point.

Nobody really knows where all this shit came from. But I think I'd rather trust the dudes in lab coats who aren't demanding I get up early every Sunday to overdress and apologize for being human.
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01-05-2013, 11:00 PM
RE: String theory
(01-05-2013 10:38 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Multi dimensions is by far the most fucking stupid thing scientists have ever come up with, IMO.

I disagree. It (more dimensions), seems to be the easiest way to explain Einstein's "spooky action at a distance", (quantum entanglement). Why should we assume we detect all of them. The math predicts many others.

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01-05-2013, 11:13 PM
RE: String theory
Funny anecdote, I'm a bit handicapped when it comes to these more complex theories of science. I was watching a certain video on string theory when the whole concept finally made sense to me. Not the details, but the concept. This old guy explained it better than I had ever heard before.

No sooner did I have that "aha!" moment, then he started in on why string theory proved the existence of god.

I promptly planted my hand squarely on my face and turned the video off. Who'da thunk?

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01-05-2013, 11:14 PM
RE: String theory
(01-05-2013 10:53 PM)ReasonandScience Wrote:  That would be stopping down to their level and stating something that no human being can possibly know at this point.

There is ultimately no magic bullet to getting to someone's reason for their beliefs. My parents have been dealing with me being an atheist now for the last 2 years or so... and slowly, but surely, we've had small discussions here and there where they have even changed their stance on previous things they thought. There are talking points that prior they would not even talk to you about that they now are fine with talking about.

The whole idea of "debating" with someone is not to get to the point where you feel you can "obliterate" someone's argument, but to find a point of understanding and then discussing those things.

You say that he would tell us that god is outside of time and space.

Ask him why he thinks that and how he would know that. When he answers that with some sort of reason, ask him why he believes that. And slowly but surely you'll slowly be able to talk about each core reason why he feels these things and you can both discuss them.

If you're willing to sit down and talk about them respectfully, you might understand it a bit better and he may be willing to listen to your points. Also consider that talking about things that you cannot explain well enough are not necessarily going to be good points of a convincing argument. It is a lot better to stick to things you can explain well enough, or things you can logically explain thoroughly. After all, the reasons you have for a lack of belief in something, or reasons you understand things, have reasons. It is more logical to discuss those things, than it is to try and convince him about how string theory works if you yourself do not understand how it works. Otherwise, you yourself are making an argument from authority (whether or not it is fact).

My mother recently gave me a book by mr Cahill which is full of a mountain of logical fallacies and ridiculous old arguments (watchmaker crap, arguments from ignorance, personal incredulity, irreducible complexity, list goes on...) and literally just seemed to stumble on shitty argument after shitty argument.

She asked me what I thought, so I was honest... I talked to her about his dishonest use of misquoting, things taken out of context, his confirmation bias issues and even broke down many of his arguments. I clarified to her that I respect that she is interested in understanding things, and recognized to her that she at least cares about looking for answers.

Slowly over the course of a few hours... she was fine with admitting that the arguments he made were pretty silly and even admitted that she has her own ideas and thoughts and even told me she thinks that most religion is manmade. Now, this doesn't get to the nitty gritty of why she still holds her own beliefs, but it does demonstrate that she reads stuff like this in "search of answers" and looking for various ideas and arguments that may support her perspective on things.

It comes down to being willing to help people understand more about what is true, than what simply sounds good to them. Whether or not they become an atheist is irrelevant, since that is literally only one stance on one subject... being rational and giving a shit about what is true I think is far more important...

Just because we want to believe something does not make it true. And likewise, just because we want something to be true, doesn't mean we are justified in believing it. So how do we decide the difference? How do we make those decisions? What is fact and what is fiction?

Hopefully these are things eventually you and your father in law can end up at.

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01-05-2013, 11:20 PM
RE: String theory
(01-05-2013 11:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-05-2013 10:38 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Multi dimensions is by far the most fucking stupid thing scientists have ever come up with, IMO.

I disagree. It (more dimensions), seems to be the easiest way to explain Einstein's "spooky action at a distance", (quantum entanglement). Why should we assume we detect all of them. The math predicts many others.

It seems the easiest way to make something that perhaps doesn't fit, fit.

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