Strong Atheists: do any of u have a position on god's existence which is facts-based?
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19-08-2014, 11:03 AM
RE: Strong Atheists: do any of u have a position on god's existence which is facts-based?
(19-08-2014 10:59 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 10:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  Having taken a lot of maths and used it every day, I call bullshit. Just sayin'. Drinking Beverage

Well; he's not totally wrong.

It's quite possible to "interpret" literally anything to support a belief in God.

Not that that makes it compelling or even coherent, of course.

Well, silly me. Facepalm

I thought he was serious. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-08-2014, 11:04 AM
RE: Strong Atheists: do any of u have a position on god's existence which is facts-based?
(19-08-2014 10:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 10:41 AM)Ray Butler Wrote:  Not fact based perse, it is possible to interpret some mathematical principles to support a belief in God; with an infinite variable equation for example. But really that is neither here nor there.

Having taken a lot of maths and used it every day, I call bullshit. Just sayin'. Drinking Beverage

Ditto.

Especially since the findings of math are all in the form of if-then statements -- IF A B and C, THEN D. It can't tell us anything about the universe, without us first knowing some things about the universe.
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19-08-2014, 11:07 AM
RE: Strong Atheists: do any of u have a position on god's existence which is facts-based?
Yes Chas and cjlr; Looking at things like the Fibonacci sequence, the Golden Ratio and Phi in nature, pseudoscientific spiritualists use these as fundamental bases for their ideas, and frankly if you can prove infinity in any way you can decide that supports a concept like an absolute being.
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19-08-2014, 11:14 AM
RE: Strong Atheists: do any of u have a position on god's existence which is facts-based?
(19-08-2014 11:07 AM)Ray Butler Wrote:  Yes Chas and cjlr; Looking at things like the Fibonacci sequence, the Golden Ratio and Phi in nature, pseudoscientific spiritualists use these as fundamental bases for their ideas, and frankly if you can prove infinity in any way you can decide that supports a concept like an absolute being.

Infinities have been proven quite nicely by Georg Cantor and others.
And if you can come up with a cogent argument for how that says anything about an absolute being, please enlighten us.

I'm sure there are those who claim this, but no one does it successfully.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-08-2014, 11:17 AM
RE: Strong Atheists: do any of u have a position on god's existence which is facts-based?
(19-08-2014 11:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 11:07 AM)Ray Butler Wrote:  Yes Chas and cjlr; Looking at things like the Fibonacci sequence, the Golden Ratio and Phi in nature, pseudoscientific spiritualists use these as fundamental bases for their ideas, and frankly if you can prove infinity in any way you can decide that supports a concept like an absolute being.

Infinities have been proven quite nicely by Georg Cantor and others.
And if you can come up with a cogent argument for how that says anything about an absolute being, please enlighten us.

I'm sure there are those who claim this, but no one does it successfully.

Because in an infinite universe there is infinite potential, and infinite possibilities, in an infinite universe possibilities can very much become probabilities, not discounting an infinite mind.
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19-08-2014, 11:24 AM
RE: Strong Atheists: do any of u have a position on god's existence which is facts-based?
(19-08-2014 11:17 AM)Ray Butler Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 11:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  Infinities have been proven quite nicely by Georg Cantor and others.
And if you can come up with a cogent argument for how that says anything about an absolute being, please enlighten us.

I'm sure there are those who claim this, but no one does it successfully.

Because in an infinite universe there is infinite potential, and infinite possibilities, in an infinite universe possibilities can very much become probabilities, not discounting an infinite mind.

... except that's just hopeless grasping at straws.

"But, like anyone could be out there somewhere" doesn't exactly help theists who are trying to claim that a God exists here and interacts with us, no less.

I mean, it's obviously got enough truthiness to shore up pre-existing belief, but it's a terrible argument.
(so, you know - like all apologetics)

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19-08-2014, 11:30 AM
RE: Strong Atheists: do any of u have a position on god's existence which is facts-based?
(19-08-2014 11:24 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 11:17 AM)Ray Butler Wrote:  Because in an infinite universe there is infinite potential, and infinite possibilities, in an infinite universe possibilities can very much become probabilities, not discounting an infinite mind.

... except that's just hopeless grasping at straws.

"But, like anyone could be out there somewhere" doesn't exactly help theists who are trying to claim that a God exists here and interacts with us, no less.

I mean, it's obviously got enough truthiness to shore up pre-existing belief, but it's a terrible argument.
(so, you know - like all apologetics)

I agree, but it isn't apologetics, it is being objective, you cannot hold an absolute view from a mind that isn't, it goes without saying.
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19-08-2014, 11:34 AM
RE: Strong Atheists: do any of u have a position on god's existence which is facts-based?
(19-08-2014 11:30 AM)Ray Butler Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 11:24 AM)cjlr Wrote:  ... except that's just hopeless grasping at straws.

"But, like anyone could be out there somewhere" doesn't exactly help theists who are trying to claim that a God exists here and interacts with us, no less.

I mean, it's obviously got enough truthiness to shore up pre-existing belief, but it's a terrible argument.
(so, you know - like all apologetics)

I agree, but it isn't apologetics, it is being objective, you cannot hold an absolute view from a mind that isn't, it goes without saying.

And because I can't hold an absolute objective point of view, I can't prove there's not a God?

Is that where this is going?

Because yes, that sure as shit is apologetics, and it's very transparently dancing around the burden of proof.

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19-08-2014, 11:44 AM
RE: Strong Atheists: do any of u have a position on god's existence which is facts-based?
(19-08-2014 11:34 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(19-08-2014 11:30 AM)Ray Butler Wrote:  I agree, but it isn't apologetics, it is being objective, you cannot hold an absolute view from a mind that isn't, it goes without saying.

And because I can't hold an absolute objective point of view, I can't prove there's not a God?

Is that where this is going?

Because yes, that sure as shit is apologetics, and it's very transparently dancing around the burden of proof.

I'd say ask how relevant a belief in God is, not ask how to prove it.
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19-08-2014, 11:58 AM
RE: Strong Atheists: do any of u have a position on god's existence which...
(19-08-2014 05:26 AM)One Above All Wrote:  You do, of course, realize that someone can say something that is 100% false, right?
If I told you that the Earth was flat, for example, that statement would be false.

We'd need to have structures of cognition of the same dimensionality for that to be so. Eg a rational worldview human has 3D structures of cognition and so direct awareness of 3D space is possible. If he had 2D structures of cognition, then the same spatial awareness would not be possible, he would see a globe as a (flat) circle.

Interestingly, pre-rational humans are only reflectively self-aware in 2 dimensions. So in fact, 3D space does appear in their awareness somewhat confusingly collapsed into 2 dimensions.

You can spot this in the artistic depictions of:

* Pre rational (pre-renaissance) art (perspective absent or poorly depicted)
* Rational worldview art (depiction of perspective snaps into focus)

A new dimension of cognitive complexity emerged in european humans during the renaissance. The flat earth idea was in fact, a pre-rational concept.

Phil
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