Stubborn is stubborn
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06-03-2012, 01:29 PM
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
(06-03-2012 12:49 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I liked the video, the guy who's callinf was quite informed and could think, he got tangled in his own logic, and the hosts were very cunning and cornered him in a rhetorical dead end. They just didn't accepted his premiss, and didn't give him a small hole to get away with it.

I'm not saying the caller was right, I think he was in an unfair fight though Tongue

I don't think it was unfair. The caller was trying to pin Matt into a logical pen based on a false premise from the start. It only "sounded" like it could be solid but Dilahunty was not going to allow it, and I don't blame him. If there's a problem with the logical argument the person is trying to make then it shouldn't be allowed to slide. And if part of the foundation of the logical argument is bad, then the whole thing is flawed so why continue with the rest of the argument if it could sidetrack the error that was at the start?

I hope that made sense lol...
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06-03-2012, 06:45 PM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2012 07:00 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
(06-03-2012 01:03 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  The fact that nothing as we percieve of it , is called nothing (non something) does not epistemologgically require anything to make it a link in causality in keeping with our scientific capabilities.

Could not an assumed nothing, operate beyond the laws of causality in a manner beyond the linkages at our disposal.

I love it when physicists are asked what the hell is going on inside a black hole. They look as dumbfounded as I do while just going about my daily life.

(06-03-2012 01:03 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I see atheism as logically correct, but in terms of systems beyond our secular reasoning powers nothing could be a non causal source but real, relevant to currently locked in Universal non causal meanings.

Yeah, logic and reason ain't divine inspiration or the word of god, it's just another useful technology which if not used properly can be dangerous in the wrong hands.

(06-03-2012 01:03 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  While I object strongly to the bulk of religion I do not hold metaphysical comtemplations as a taboo area, by virtue of scientific limitations, as pointed out by Hume,Popper, Kuhn and other so called irreationalist philosophers.

Likewise. I was really into this at University some 30 years ago before my wife got pregnant and I realized there was a high risk that I wasn't gonna be good enough at it to make a living and support a family and I switched from PHIL to CS in the nick of time. But I'm thinking about taking it up again as a hobby, man's gotta have a hobby. ... and a boat, man's gotta have a boat. Wink

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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06-03-2012, 07:03 PM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2012 07:06 PM by Mr Woof.)
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
Thanks Girly, lots of theists, agnostics, atheists, philosophers etc think etc I am a bit of a nutter re said views.

A good friend of mine here in Melbourne who is Secretary of the Atheist Society and The Existentialist Society is on a similar wave. length.

You can have box number of Victorian Atheist Society is you wish, probably; need to affirm with David as I like to be discreet with other peeps emails addresses etc.Wink
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06-03-2012, 07:26 PM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2012 07:34 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
(06-03-2012 07:03 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Thanks Girly, lots of theists, agnostics, atheists, philosophers etc think etc I am a bit of a nutter re said views.

You don't read nutter to me (but my endorsement might be diminished by the fact that HoC don't read nutter to me either, Egor on the other hand, well there's a nutter). What's nutter to me is that they seem to just be ignoring the problem of induction these days, dismissing it out of hand like somehow it's no longer a problem. ... That's nutter.

(06-03-2012 07:03 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  You can have box number of Victorian Atheist Society is you wish, probably; need to affirm with David as I like to be discreet with other peeps emails addresses etc.Wink

Dunno what you're talking about. What's that mean?

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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06-03-2012, 07:42 PM
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
Well I've been warned off the world forum here in March, banned from A.F.A. for life etc.......gotta watch it....google Atheist Foundation Australia and wait for further glues.....hope your nort a spy?? Cool not woof there.
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06-03-2012, 08:53 PM
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
(06-03-2012 07:42 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Well I've been warned off the world forum here in March, banned from A.F.A. for life etc.......gotta watch it....google Atheist Foundation Australia and wait for further glues.....hope your nort a spy?? Cool not woof there.

Still got no idea what you're talkin' 'bout, brother, but I am most certainly a spy. Wink




As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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06-03-2012, 09:58 PM
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
(06-03-2012 07:03 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  A good friend of mine here in Melbourne who is Secretary of the Atheist Society and The Existentialist Society is on a similar wave. length.

Existentialism gives Atheism a solid philosophical and moral foundation.
The only existentialist Christian was Kierkegaard and he was a complete nut. He hated the Catholic Church more than the people they put to the flame.

Sartre and Nietzsche were complete atheists. I think Heidegger as well.

I'm solidly in the existentialist column. If you want to convert a theist with an open mind start with existentialism. If they buy into the fact that the essence of being human is nothingness and get them biting on authenticity, they will be atheists without knowing they just reject the God plan.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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07-03-2012, 12:36 AM
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
(06-03-2012 01:29 PM)kineo Wrote:  
(06-03-2012 12:49 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I liked the video, the guy who's callinf was quite informed and could think, he got tangled in his own logic, and the hosts were very cunning and cornered him in a rhetorical dead end. They just didn't accepted his premiss, and didn't give him a small hole to get away with it.

I'm not saying the caller was right, I think he was in an unfair fight though Tongue

I don't think it was unfair. The caller was trying to pin Matt into a logical pen based on a false premise from the start. It only "sounded" like it could be solid but Dilahunty was not going to allow it, and I don't blame him. If there's a problem with the logical argument the person is trying to make then it shouldn't be allowed to slide. And if part of the foundation of the logical argument is bad, then the whole thing is flawed so why continue with the rest of the argument if it could sidetrack the error that was at the start?

I hope that made sense lol...

Yes it made sense Big Grin I agree with you, I said it was unfair because the guy who called couldn't fight back, I guess a person with more debate skills could have done it better, not that it would change things, but at least could have fight back a bit.

This video is what I would call an overkill Tongue

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08-03-2012, 10:53 AM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2012 10:56 AM by Starcrash.)
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
(05-03-2012 04:20 PM)Thomas Wrote:  Why does a believer HAVE TO call into this show and argue?
Can't he just be content in his belief and go about his life?

I have heard the theory that rejection of God is actually rejection of the person who claims God. It is a personal rejection. If Christians were so confident why do any of them bother with a minority of non-believers. They should all just think that atheists are simply going to hell and they are going to be with the God they believe in.

Can this logic be flipped around on atheists? Should atheists just shut up and go about their business content in their belief that there is no God?

This is almost like the same discussion held on the "How do you convert a theist" thread... there's this underlying question of "Should we convert theists"?

If they aren't hurting anyone but themselves, I say let them go at it. It's truly awful what the Church of Scientology does to its members financially, but it doesn't affect any of us and those that are going poor as a result volunteered to believe that shit. So I don't attack Scientology, or any other belief that doesn't impose its will on me.

Like you've pointed out, it can be flipped around --- we should still observe the golden rule and not do to others what we don't want done to us. If we want privacy in our beliefs, we should offer privacy to the theists. But if my beliefs did lead me to cause harm to others, I would want somebody to be pointing out the damage and blaming me for it so I could fix it.
(05-03-2012 11:30 AM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  Sure, we all get a little stubborn from time to time. It is a bad thing to have a lot of.
Sometimes we hold onto positions for far too long for no good reason other than we just don't want to give it up.
The theist in the clip below is one such person.
No matter how nice they seem to be, stubborn is stubborn.
The power of god glasses combined with the power of stubborn = Hang up.

Are you implying that you're not stubborn? Or is it okay despite being a "bad thing to have a lot of"?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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08-03-2012, 11:30 AM
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
(08-03-2012 10:53 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  If they aren't hurting anyone but themselves, I say let them go at it. It's truly awful what the Church of Scientology does to its members financially, but it doesn't affect any of us and those that are going poor as a result volunteered to believe that shit. So I don't attack Scientology, or any other belief that doesn't impose its will on me.

Are you implying that you're not stubborn? Or is it okay despite being a "bad thing to have a lot of"?

"...we all get a little stubborn from time to time." That "we" word includes everyone, including me. Don't see how/where I implied that I was immune to that.
Stubbornness, for the sake of being stubborn is a bad thing, in any amount. We should ALL be willing to change a position readily if good reasons become available.

Most religions DO hurt you at the very least indirectly. Whether they meddle in politics or Science or in the media, religion and its influence on society DOES have a negative impact. A mostly negative impact.
Scientology is a good example of how it has a negative but indirect impact on our society. It's growth reduces the cumulative intelligence of our society which is bad for us all.
The Fox far right "news" network uses it's religious foundation to damage our society also by making millions of people stupid. How many sided with Bill on the Tide thing?
This is not helpful to our society and is hurting us all as a result.
Then, a person like you has to go and waste time educating and debunking them in most cases to no avail. One person at a time. Meanwhile, the religious machine is spitting them out by the thousands.
That is why you should not "let them go at it". They ARE imposing their will on many people which does effect you.
Whether or not folks stand there and do nothing about it or not is of course their choice. I think that once folks see the deeper more sinister methods used by the powerful entities that control religious strings, they may take a different stance.
I hope so anyway.

It's all in your head, because there is no other place it could be.
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