Stubborn is stubborn
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08-03-2012, 05:57 PM
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
(08-03-2012 11:30 AM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  "...we all get a little stubborn from time to time." That "we" word includes everyone, including me. Don't see how/where I implied that I was immune to that.
Stubbornness, for the sake of being stubborn is a bad thing, in any amount. We should ALL be willing to change a position readily if good reasons become available.

Most religions DO hurt you at the very least indirectly. Whether they meddle in politics or Science or in the media, religion and its influence on society DOES have a negative impact. A mostly negative impact.
Scientology is a good example of how it has a negative but indirect impact on our society. It's growth reduces the cumulative intelligence of our society which is bad for us all.
The Fox far right "news" network uses it's religious foundation to damage our society also by making millions of people stupid. How many sided with Bill on the Tide thing?
This is not helpful to our society and is hurting us all as a result.
Then, a person like you has to go and waste time educating and debunking them in most cases to no avail. One person at a time. Meanwhile, the religious machine is spitting them out by the thousands.
That is why you should not "let them go at it". They ARE imposing their will on many people which does effect you.
Whether or not folks stand there and do nothing about it or not is of course their choice. I think that once folks see the deeper more sinister methods used by the powerful entities that control religious strings, they may take a different stance.
I hope so anyway.

Stubbornness is a hard thing to quantify. It's not like I can examine you or myself and say "the stubbornness meter reads 7.5 megawatts". But despite that, you can get a fuzzy picture of how stubborn a person is.

I'm glad you agree that our positions should be flexible and open to change, and your post would have been pretty good if it ended right there... but clearly that was sitting on you wrong, and you felt that you had to demonstrate your close-mindedness.

Scientology is bad for us because it "reduces the cumulative intelligence of our society" --- I think the word cumulative is out-of-place here and indefensible. Do Scientologists burn libraries? Block access to reference materials? Prevent people from getting their subscriptions to Scientific American? They don't reduce our intelligence, cumulative or otherwise. It sounds like just a roundabout way of labeling Scientologists as "dumb", and just like any other cult they recruit both dumb and smart people. Intelligence isn't behind what drives a person to religion.

Then you make the same assumption of Fox viewers. These things don't make people dumb, even when they misinform. The fact that you have a prejudice against these people tells me that you're not even willing to accept that they could be right ever, even to a certain degree. It's rational to note that a stopped clock is right twice a day, and even Fox has to be right on occasion even if it's just accidental. Hell, they could even be right on a topic while liberals could be wrong. Just being a liberal doesn't make you "always right" any more than being conservative makes you "always wrong".

Keep an open mind. Be slow to make assumptions about groups of people, and try to empathize with them whenever possible. We're all human. We're all wrong sometimes. But the way to avoid being wrong is to examine your own beliefs along with the beliefs of your opponents.

Quote:That is why you should not "let them go at it". They ARE imposing their will on many people which does effect you.

Really? Wouldn't you do the same in their position?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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08-03-2012, 06:27 PM
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
Just so I understand you. You are an advocate of Scientology and find it harmless.
Scientology is not dumb. Folks that believe it, do no harm to society at all.
Is this how you see it?

Scientology IS dumb. It lowers the intelligence average of humanity by that much. That is the way I see it.

The data is clear. the average Fox viewer IS less informed than ANY other group. Including those who watch nothing.
One can safely say that Fox makes people stupid.

It's all in your head, because there is no other place it could be.
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08-03-2012, 09:56 PM
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
(08-03-2012 06:27 PM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  Just so I understand you. You are an advocate of Scientology and find it harmless.
Scientology is not dumb. Folks that believe it, do no harm to society at all.
Is this how you see it?

Scientology IS dumb. It lowers the intelligence average of humanity by that much. That is the way I see it.

The data is clear. the average Fox viewer IS less informed than ANY other group. Including those who watch nothing.
One can safely say that Fox makes people stupid.

I do not advocate Scientology. You're creating a false dilemma, by assuming that I either hate Scientology and want to end it or I must be an advocate. No, I'm somewhere in the middle. I disagree with it, but because it doesn't personally affect me I'm not concerned about it. And I agree with you that Scientology is dumb, but I disagree with you that all Scientologists are dumb. And yes, folks that believe it do no harm to society. They hurt each other an awful lot (in some cases they've even imprisoned their own members in the desert of Arizona) but their evil actions are internal and among themselves.

I also understand that FOX viewers are almost always consistently misinformed. I watch Jon Stewart every day that it's on, including the one where he had to apologize because Politifact caught him making this statement without the "almost" before "always" (is this what you meant to cite? the hyperlink leads nowhere). I was not aware that people who get no news are more informed than FOX viewers, but if you actually have a good citation to that then you have proved your point about FOX and I take back my argument against it... knowing less about the truth as a result of watching FOX news would actually mean that FOX news "makes you dumber"... but I have a hard time believing that, and I can't find a single poll that also included people who don't have any news source.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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08-03-2012, 10:36 PM
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
Well here ya go.

One study is here.

"According to a new poll (PDF) from Fairleigh Dickinson University, if you watch Fox News you are significantly less likely to know the correct answer to that question than if you mostly avoid news shows and newspapers all together."

The actual numbers are here

It's all in your head, because there is no other place it could be.
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09-03-2012, 09:43 AM
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
(08-03-2012 10:36 PM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  Well here ya go.

One study is here.

"According to a new poll (PDF) from Fairleigh Dickinson University, if you watch Fox News you are significantly less likely to know the correct answer to that question than if you mostly avoid news shows and newspapers all together."

The actual numbers are here

Well, color me wrong. It's hard to imagine that watching the news can make you stupid, but apparently it's possible. With balanced coverage (watching news from a political leaning that you don't agree with) or watching criticism of the coverage you get, you'd still learn something even with skewed news --- but even in my personal experience I know an awful lot of people who get their news only from conservative sources.

Nicely done.

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09-03-2012, 09:57 AM
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
Thank you.

The next question to ask is "Does Fox have a negative impact on you or our society?".
To me the answer is a resounding YES!
They make the bathwater we are all swimming in that much dirtier.
Same goes for Scientology and the rest of 'em.

It's all in your head, because there is no other place it could be.
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09-03-2012, 10:11 AM
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
(09-03-2012 09:57 AM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  Thank you.

The next question to ask is "Does Fox have a negative impact on you or our society?".
To me the answer is a resounding YES!
They make the bathwater we are all swimming in that much dirtier.
Same goes for Scientology and the rest of 'em.

I fear that the US is headed into a war with Iran, and FOX is going to lead the way. Every single Republican candidate has said belligerent things along the lines of "we have to hit them first". Even Obama has considered a military option to help our ally, Israel, if the Prime Minister Nettenyahu decides to lead the way and strike Iran. Misinformation is being fed to our news networks by special interests in order to prompt them like the prompting they receiving on Iraq.

We didn't seem to learn our lesson from Iraq --- that it was expensive, unnecessary, and cost innocent people their lives. And now we're going to do it again, just because. It's so stupid. And FOX has done nothing to reveal the lies behind this campaign... although they've broadcast few of them, too. Let's hope they stay somewhat impartial, because their megaphones could certainly light a fire in the American people that drives us towards this senseless violence.

Scientology, by the way, does not have a megaphone. Scientologists do not show up on television to speak about what their church feels on any political subject --- unlike Christianity, they're pretty politic-neutral. Again, I feel that any misinformation that they feed to others is done within their own ranks, and I don't feel bad for any of them because they volunteered to be lied to.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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09-03-2012, 10:31 AM
RE: Stubborn is stubborn
(09-03-2012 10:11 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  It's so stupid. And FOX has done nothing to reveal the lies behind this campaign... although they've broadcast few of them, too. Let's hope they stay somewhat impartial,

This entire thing is deep down a religion thing let's not forget.
Fox is driven by faith and religious money. BIG time.
As I'm sure your research will confirm, the more rational side can find no justification for the escalation whatsoever.
As you have rightly pointed out, all the rhetoric comes from a narrow band of brothers.

To my eye, there are very strong, well funded wacky and misguided religious fundamentalist forces at work here. (sorry, that was a mouthful)
The way the USA acts towards Israel is a clear indication of that imho.

Impossible for Fox to be impartial. They truly suck hind wind. Fair and balanced my arse!

It's all in your head, because there is no other place it could be.
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