Stupid Adults!
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04-10-2012, 01:35 PM
RE: Stupid Adults!
(04-10-2012 11:03 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I am all for saying adults are dumb, but I am not willing to admit that children play no role in how they behave. Note that I did not say they are solely responsible Logica, but to imply they are unaware of what they are doing is stupid. I don't use that term lightly.

As I have said, the responsibility will always be rooted to the parent until the child is able to think independently, in which case (depending on varying levels of indoctrination), it may be too late for the child to formulate its own opinions. To expect a two year old to intrinsically know not to scribble on a wall is similar to expecting a teenager to intrinsically know not to smoke the joint before driving. Now, of course, if the parents teach (not just order) their children not to do so, and they persist, they are indeed responsible for their actions.

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04-10-2012, 02:02 PM
RE: Stupid Adults!
That comparison is rubbish. The 2 year-old has a perception of reality that is not only limited in knowledge, but in social and moral cues. The teenager who smokes the joint is either unaware of reality and chooses to smoke and drive, or knows it is illegal and chooses to do so anyways. I did not say the parent can forgo their duty to teach, but the teenager has the ability to recognize right from wrong in most situations.

People are so quick to judge parents for all of the bad things their kids do. They do have a mind of their own you know.

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05-10-2012, 09:37 AM (This post was last modified: 05-10-2012 09:42 AM by Logica Humano.)
RE: Stupid Adults!
(04-10-2012 02:02 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That comparison is rubbish. The 2 year-old has a perception of reality that is not only limited in knowledge, but in social and moral cues. The teenager who smokes the joint is either unaware of reality and chooses to smoke and drive, or knows it is illegal and chooses to do so anyways. I did not say the parent can forgo their duty to teach, but the teenager has the ability to recognize right from wrong in most situations.

People are so quick to judge parents for all of the bad things their kids do. They do have a mind of their own you know.

The comparison is accurate to what is limited to the age's knowledge. There are things people learn that are based on age. You don't tell a seven year old to have protected sex. It is irrelevant to the child's age.

I have not disagreed with that idea. I have simply said that sociological and cultural morality is not intrinsic. It is considered to be wrong to drink at the age of 16 in the U.S. It is not in Europe. How are children to know this without proper education?

Biological morality, such as the discouragement of murder, is intrinsic. The child should know it is wrong without being taught. Teenagers are still learning and developing, just like a two year old.

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05-10-2012, 09:53 AM
RE: Stupid Adults!
The comparison is not accurate. You are not simply dealing with a lack of knowledge, you are dealing with developmental issues. You don't have to discuss sex with most kids under the age of sexual maturity because they have no interest in it, but some do question where babies come from and that conversation would include some brief discussion of the how. Also a rubbish comparison.

The teenager is also not fully developed with respect to brain development, but to imply that the teenager is unable to comprehend when they are doing something wrong is not only absurd, but it is delusional. They may be allowed to do it at home, their parents may not care, they may even be enabling the action, but the teenager knows from social and moral cues that it is wrong. I drank as a teenager because I was allowed to. Should I have been? No, but I did it anyways. Did I know it was wrong? Yes. Did I make a conscious decision to do it anyway? Yes. And my friends were the same way. They knew it was wrong, but they acted.

Murder is intrinsic because of our social cues and our modern morality. It is not an ingrained code within our bodies. Teenagers know along with other age groups that murder is wrong because society has deemed it so. We recognize murder to be detrimental to our survival, harmful to others, and therefore deem it immoral.

Look at the rest of the animal kingdom. They kill one another, including within the same species. They do not do it every day, but just like humans did, they may kill over territory or mating rights, food, or any one of a number of different reasons. It is not an ingrained moral belief and must be taught along with it. You are arguing against yourself.

People who are unable or unwilling to pick up on these moral cues often find themselves labeled as monsters. They are disconnected from society socially and it may be due to how they were raised and where, or it could be that along with a chemical imbalance in the brain. In many cases they can't separate right from wrong. So these individuals overlook social cues and commit crimes and may not realize they are doing anything wrong. Are you trying to equate teenagers with these people?

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05-10-2012, 10:12 AM
RE: Stupid Adults!
(05-10-2012 09:53 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The comparison is not accurate. You are not simply dealing with a lack of knowledge, you are dealing with developmental issues. You don't have to discuss sex with most kids under the age of sexual maturity because they have no interest in it, but some do question where babies come from and that conversation would include some brief discussion of the how. Also a rubbish comparison.

The teenager is also not fully developed with respect to brain development, but to imply that the teenager is unable to comprehend when they are doing something wrong is not only absurd, but it is delusional. They may be allowed to do it at home, their parents may not care, they may even be enabling the action, but the teenager knows from social and moral cues that it is wrong. I drank as a teenager because I was allowed to. Should I have been? No, but I did it anyways. Did I know it was wrong? Yes. Did I make a conscious decision to do it anyway? Yes. And my friends were the same way. They knew it was wrong, but they acted.

Murder is intrinsic because of our social cues and our modern morality. It is not an ingrained code within our bodies. Teenagers know along with other age groups that murder is wrong because society has deemed it so. We recognize murder to be detrimental to our survival, harmful to others, and therefore deem it immoral.

Look at the rest of the animal kingdom. They kill one another, including within the same species. They do not do it every day, but just like humans did, they may kill over territory or mating rights, food, or any one of a number of different reasons. It is not an ingrained moral belief and must be taught along with it. You are arguing against yourself.

People who are unable or unwilling to pick up on these moral cues often find themselves labeled as monsters. They are disconnected from society socially and it may be due to how they were raised and where, or it could be that along with a chemical imbalance in the brain. In many cases they can't separate right from wrong. So these individuals overlook social cues and commit crimes and may not realize they are doing anything wrong. Are you trying to equate teenagers with these people?

I fail to see how it is rubbish when I am comparing the concept of teaching a different age group. You teach a two year-old not to write on the wall with a crayon. You teach a teenager not to drink. These are two separate topics to be taught, and to different age groups. Yes?

So, all I stated, was that it is unfair to expect a child to intrinsically know not to drink, or not to write on the wall. It is up to the adults to teach this morality to the child. Now, depending on how well it is taught can be gauged by the behavior of the child. Reinforcement is necessary, I am sure you will also agree here.

It is up to the parent to teach this morality, and to enforce it. That is what I have said.

And as for the evolution of morality:




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05-10-2012, 12:17 PM
RE: Stupid Adults!
The reason it is a rubbish comparison is because the difference in the age groups is not the age but the development. I am talking biological and social development. The 2 year old child is testing new ground with their parents, my 7 month old is testing new ground with his parents. In some situations the teenager will test new ground too, but the difference is that the 2 year old's understanding of what they are doing and why the parents are or are not reacting is completely different than the teenagers understanding. The child's understanding of the world does not equal that of the teenagers because they lack the developmental tools necessary to fully comprehend it. That does not mean that they do not understand basic principles as outlined by animal behavior in the TED talk you posted (a very good one by the way, I love TED), but we deal with issues of fairness and equality that are not as straightforward as cucumber and grape and right/wrong that is not black and white but a gray-scale. Teenagers SHOULD understand this based on their development within the social structure of our societies. Including issues that their parents may be lax on, such as alcohol consumption or drug use. But that is ultimately irrelevant because the teenager also knows that while the parents are an important factor in their lives, they SHOULD know that their parents do not define right and wrong or moral and amoral in society. As a matter of fact, a lot of testing the ground I did as a teenager was because of this realization. It was not because of my mother and fathers attitude but in spite of it. I did things because they told me not to. When a teenager does this, is that still the parents fault? Should they have taught them better than what they taught them? Does that even make sense?

As for the rest of the video, morals exist in nature, but they do not exist in the black and white way in which we often portray. Yes these studies show cooperation and altruistic behavior that also occurs in the wild, but so do the opposite events. The study of altruism in this study where one of the chimps selects a red or green token to determine whether or not both chimps get fed is a perfect example. He showed that selecting for the benefit of both parties decreased in situations where the the receiving chimp would act aggressively towards the selecting chimp. In this case selection for the benefit of both parties became random.

Absolute morality does not exist when the factor of time is added in either when it comes to humans. Our understanding of how things work contributes to our understanding of right and wrong, moral and amoral. No one would have ever considered strip mining and the unregulated burning of coal to be immoral in the late 1800's, but we now know them to be detrimental to our health and long-term surviveability. As such, we have begun to regulate both, but not stop it. That is because we recognize it is a complex issue where we cannot stop it entirely but that to allow it to continue unchecked is equally damning to our society.

Teenagers are not adults and they are not children. They have to begin the process of taking responsibility for their own actions. The parents contribute and have contributed to their current knowledge base and sense of morality. It is not solely on the parent when the teenager makes a bad decision. That does not mean the teenager is not to blame nor does it mean the parent is to blame. It is not a simple issue. Stop pretending it is.

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05-10-2012, 12:36 PM
RE: Stupid Adults!
Yes, and the teen has undoubtedly been exposed to the issue of drinking/smoking pot/driving elsewhere, too. They're aware of what's legal and allowed and what isn't, so it's up to them whether they choose to follow the laws or their parents' rules.

As for a 2 year old writing on the wall, he simply doesn't know it's wrong. It's the same thing as when I taught my puppies not to chew my shoes; they had no idea that was unacceptable behavior until I yelled at them for it and took the shoe away. So you teach the puppy to chew on chew toys, and the child to use crayons on coloring books. These things are just ignorance of the rules they are expected to follow, and testing new ground ("What can I chew on?"/"What can I draw on?").
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05-10-2012, 03:28 PM
RE: Stupid Adults!
Wow, this semi-lighthearted thread turned into something of actual debate...

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06-10-2012, 05:38 AM
RE: Stupid Adults!
(05-10-2012 12:17 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The reason it is a rubbish comparison is because the difference in the age groups is not the age but the development. I am talking biological and social development. The 2 year old child is testing new ground with their parents, my 7 month old is testing new ground with his parents. In some situations the teenager will test new ground too, but the difference is that the 2 year old's understanding of what they are doing and why the parents are or are not reacting is completely different than the teenagers understanding. The child's understanding of the world does not equal that of the teenagers because they lack the developmental tools necessary to fully comprehend it. That does not mean that they do not understand basic principles as outlined by animal behavior in the TED talk you posted (a very good one by the way, I love TED), but we deal with issues of fairness and equality that are not as straightforward as cucumber and grape and right/wrong that is not black and white but a gray-scale. Teenagers SHOULD understand this based on their development within the social structure of our societies. Including issues that their parents may be lax on, such as alcohol consumption or drug use. But that is ultimately irrelevant because the teenager also knows that while the parents are an important factor in their lives, they SHOULD know that their parents do not define right and wrong or moral and amoral in society. As a matter of fact, a lot of testing the ground I did as a teenager was because of this realization. It was not because of my mother and fathers attitude but in spite of it. I did things because they told me not to. When a teenager does this, is that still the parents fault? Should they have taught them better than what they taught them? Does that even make sense?

As for the rest of the video, morals exist in nature, but they do not exist in the black and white way in which we often portray. Yes these studies show cooperation and altruistic behavior that also occurs in the wild, but so do the opposite events. The study of altruism in this study where one of the chimps selects a red or green token to determine whether or not both chimps get fed is a perfect example. He showed that selecting for the benefit of both parties decreased in situations where the the receiving chimp would act aggressively towards the selecting chimp. In this case selection for the benefit of both parties became random.

Absolute morality does not exist when the factor of time is added in either when it comes to humans. Our understanding of how things work contributes to our understanding of right and wrong, moral and amoral. No one would have ever considered strip mining and the unregulated burning of coal to be immoral in the late 1800's, but we now know them to be detrimental to our health and long-term surviveability. As such, we have begun to regulate both, but not stop it. That is because we recognize it is a complex issue where we cannot stop it entirely but that to allow it to continue unchecked is equally damning to our society.

Teenagers are not adults and they are not children. They have to begin the process of taking responsibility for their own actions. The parents contribute and have contributed to their current knowledge base and sense of morality. It is not solely on the parent when the teenager makes a bad decision. That does not mean the teenager is not to blame nor does it mean the parent is to blame. It is not a simple issue. Stop pretending it is.

What you are now defining is ethics, the social standards for behavior. Yet again, these are often contradicted by individual morality. Many people think pirating is okay. Does that mean it is socially acceptable to steal intellectual property? No, it does not. This is when an individual's personal moral code begins to nullify said social expectations.

You are correct, morality is definitely a gray area. The majority of people, however, see it in black and white. A teenager's morality is based off of what they have been taught, not only by the society that they have experienced, but by the adults of that society. Note I said adults in the previous post, and not just parents.

I am not making this a simple issue, nor am I pretending it is.

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06-10-2012, 06:20 AM
RE: Stupid Adults!
i am sorry, didn't look at this thread anymore, just now saw it again and that Free thought asked something:
(02-10-2012 09:40 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Legal age for what, I wonder Leela.
Legal age for everything.
Mistakes and their consequences are more severe but the rest is really cool!

Now, having seen that there are by now some longer posts, I do have some stuff on a serious note:
Sorry if some of this may have been said before, I did not read back 5 pages.

1. I do understand that teenagers and kids have real problems and I will not make those smaller than they are. I have been that age myself and so has everyone else. There is more and more pressure from teachers. I understand that you are often over loaded with homework and do not have a free afternoon. I understand that social pressure during those years is almost unbearable if you are not conform with everyone else. I know the huge bullying problem at schools and that teachers are not excluded from this problem. I understand that it is very frustrating to be dependend for everything from food to a new set of underware to books for school or just an evening at the movies. I know for a fact that there are more depressed kids out there nowadays than when I was a kid, which is not toooo long ago, after all I am only 28.

2. Yes, it is annoying to be told what to do but most of the time the adult means well and does indeed know better. They simply have more experience in many things, which does not mean they can't learn from you guys. I had 3rd-graders explain simple maths to me because I am unable to solve even the smallest math problems, and those kids actually did help me with this and I am thankful. I had teenagers explain me a lot of things that I didn't know or fully understand, but there are things I can tell a teenager or a kid and I know, that no matter how much they disagree, I am right. I have been through most of the stuff you guys talk about numerous times (excluding most stuff about religios frustration) and that is why I know better, I learnt from my mistakes, and the fact that I (or any other adult) shares these experiences is a good thing. We don't want to annoy you guys, we want you to not step in the same traps, not to do the same stupid mistakes. Yes, you want to learn yourself, and there are plenty of things noone will tell you what to do, but sometimes it is probably better to just listen.

3. During your teen years you have the opportunity to make mistakes and noone will judge you for that. (Apart from stupid people who think they will never fail, and those you may ignore)
Take this time to learn AND to listen to adults. They are not stupid, believe me. They may be morons though Wink And that is fine, everyone is allowed to be a moron. As long as you act moronic, not stupid Smile See the fine line?

4. Yes, there are some stupid adults! Especially those who seem to be immune to information. Especially those who have their set of opinions and no matter what new information or evidence arises they will argue it away or simply ignore. But that is not an adult desease, there are enough teens out there who are exactly the same way.

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