Stupidity tests
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18-03-2014, 03:40 PM
RE: Stupidity tests
The only thing that I can think of that can create confusion is the way you explain the "women becoming men" thing. I get it, you're using men in the sense of "hierarchical position" instead of gender, but that wordplay can be counter-productive.
Otherwise, your ideas are right imo, marriage as traditionally defined is obsolete, though it is gradually being adapted to serve other, close but not quite the same, purposes.

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18-03-2014, 03:54 PM
RE: Stupidity tests
(18-03-2014 03:40 PM)nach_in Wrote:  The only thing that I can think of that can create confusion is the way you explain the "women becoming men" thing. I get it, you're using men in the sense of "hierarchical position" instead of gender, but that wordplay can be counter-productive.
Otherwise, your ideas are right imo, marriage as traditionally defined is obsolete, though it is gradually being adapted to serve other, close but not quite the same, purposes.

In my defense this wasn't the best version of this idea I've bought out. I agree with you too about the different purposes. What I hate is talking to people in my family and they say, "You're wrong because God created marriage". MAN that kills me!!! Nothing beats god's plan because he is the master. His plan involves marriage.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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18-03-2014, 04:01 PM
RE: Stupidity tests
(18-03-2014 03:54 PM)BlackMason Wrote:  
(18-03-2014 03:40 PM)nach_in Wrote:  The only thing that I can think of that can create confusion is the way you explain the "women becoming men" thing. I get it, you're using men in the sense of "hierarchical position" instead of gender, but that wordplay can be counter-productive.
Otherwise, your ideas are right imo, marriage as traditionally defined is obsolete, though it is gradually being adapted to serve other, close but not quite the same, purposes.

In my defense this wasn't the best version of this idea I've bought out. I agree with you too about the different purposes. What I hate is talking to people in my family and they say, "You're wrong because God created marriage". MAN that kills me!!! Nothing beats god's plan because he is the master. His plan involves marriage.

Are you seriously asking if you're stupid compared to religious fundies on a forum named The Thinking Atheist? Facepalm

joke aside, yeah, it's frustrating. But they're the dumb ones Hobo

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18-03-2014, 04:33 PM
RE: Stupidity tests
(18-03-2014 02:53 PM)BlackMason Wrote:  Yeah sure. I'll give an example of an idea I came up with. It's my view on marriage.

I believe that marriage is out dated so to speak.
OK, we already agree Sleepy

(18-03-2014 02:53 PM)BlackMason Wrote:  That is why we're seeing the divorce rates sky rocket.
Hmmmm, very interesting take, haven't thought of this myself, would like to know more.

(18-03-2014 02:53 PM)BlackMason Wrote:  Why do I believe this? Allow me to explain.

Since forever women have been treated like secondary citizens. Women were oppressed and in some cases an unmarried woman was effectively a minor. That meant she couldn't inherit property from her father. So marriage had a very real practical application.
Great logic, you have established a historical need for marriage and linked that to the perspective of the woman. I agree with what you say above but i think there are other reasons why people got married. Religions taught that it was immoral to have sex outside of marriage, many people believed it was shameful and detrimental for children to be made and raised outside of a traditional family.

(18-03-2014 02:53 PM)BlackMason Wrote:  Marriage was just another way men could further exercise their superiority over women.
Interesting statement, I don't agree with it because i'm married and I never thought this would give me superiority over my wife. Low and behold I still don't have superiority over her even though i am married.

(18-03-2014 02:53 PM)BlackMason Wrote:  You always hear of one man with many wives. Never the other way around.
This is an issue with particular flavours of marriage but not marriage in general.


(18-03-2014 02:53 PM)BlackMason Wrote:  Anyway, before I start repeating myself, marriage was a "solution" for women. It was a necessity for survival.
Many women survived without being married so it wasn't a necessity, but you are right, life could be difficult in the past for a Spinster. Job opportunities were also much more difficult for women in the past so they did become dependant on men.

(18-03-2014 02:53 PM)BlackMason Wrote:  So what changed? Men have stayed the same and so has marriage. Bingo! IT'S THE WOMEN. Women are now being recognised as human beings instead of objects to be possessed. Women are starting to be equal to men. Women are the new men. Marriage was designed for a man to be with a woman. Now effectively it's between a man and a man. I'm being cheeky here but what I mean is women never really had rights and now they do. So if Joseph used to beat up Mary it wasn't good enough grounds to divorce. Jesus said the only grounds for divorce is adultery. I don't even think women could initiate divorce proceedings. Today Mary can tell Joseph to fuck off.

All in all gender roles have been confused. Men are men and women just became men. I love topping off this argument by refering to Jesus' words: Are we not pouring new wine into old skins?

I would have liked to see you explain why divorce rates are sky rocketing.
Also I would have liked to see you show why people are less likely now to go down the marriage path. Living together, raising families but not having formal marriages. Or even choosing to be solo parents.

I do think your argument shows intelligence, You are presenting a case, showing some logical flow and coming to a conclusion.
I don't think you are considering enough factors though, but if you have these discussions with more people then you can improve your case. Hence appear to be even smarter :-)

Personally I think marriage is becoming less relevant because the social stigma of sex and children outside of marriage has gone and now there are many many precedents and role models outside of marriage so it is a path well trod, also because many governments accept a defacto relationship and offer similar protections to what marriage offers then the benefits of marriage aren't there any more.
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19-03-2014, 12:28 AM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2014 12:57 AM by BlackMason.)
RE: Stupidity tests
Cool response, Stevil, but I have to say you did take me a little out of context. I think we need to be careful of quoting bit by bit because in some cases the individual bits are designed to work in conjunction with others. Therefore on their own they may not make sense.

I did explain why I believe the divorce rates have increased. I'll rephrase: Women don't need men to survive anymore. So any difficulty experienced in the marriage can result in Mary saying fuck off I'm outta here to Joseph. Two people now have the autonomy to initiate divorce proceedings.

Also as a result of quoting as mentioned above, you didn't understand the full picture of what I was communicating. I was setting the scene of how I thought marriage was in the past. Hence my statement about it being a way to have dominion over women. Yes, you may be married but you are married in this new era. You don't see the need to have control over women. As you noted and I agree, my analysis of things wasn't the only reason people got married. People tend to do things differently for conscious reasons which may differ to the subconscious reasons. This could be one of the reasons people decide to end marriages for no apparent explicable reason. Then when they're asked, their reason is bullshit.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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19-03-2014, 01:42 AM
RE: Stupidity tests
(19-03-2014 12:28 AM)BlackMason Wrote:  Cool response, Stevil, but I have to say you did take me a little out of context.
Sorry, my bad

(19-03-2014 12:28 AM)BlackMason Wrote:  I did explain why I believe the divorce rates have increased. I'll rephrase: Women don't need men to survive anymore. So any difficulty experienced in the marriage can result in Mary saying fuck off I'm outta here to Joseph. Two people now have the autonomy to initiate divorce proceedings.
I was a bit confused regarding timelines.
There was a statement about Jesus' opinion of divorce
Quote:Jesus said the only grounds for divorce is adultery.
Jesus was around supposedly 2,000 years ago.
You talked of the change event being that women got rights
Quote:So what changed? Men have stayed the same and so has marriage. Bingo! IT'S THE WOMEN. Women are now being recognised as human beings instead of objects to be possessed.
I wasn't quite sure when that happened and how this event correlated to skyrocketing diverse rates. A graph of divorce rates with a big arrow pointing to this woman's rights event would have helped me, as I am quite visual.

Also you said
Quote:So if Joseph used to beat up Mary it wasn't good enough grounds to divorce
So I assume there has been a law change regarding conditions for divorce. I'd be keen to know when that law change took effect, super imposed on the graph would have been great too.
It seems that you are saying woman are initiating the divorces? is there some evidence to support that?

I must say, I'm a bit confused. But probably more my failings in comprehension rather than your failings in your argument.
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19-03-2014, 04:33 AM
RE: Stupidity tests
My argument wasn't well written. So that could be why there are some misunderstandings. I'm not claiming my ideas to be truth, I'm just claiming that they are plausible, something that people in my family would say they are not, hence the creation of this thead.

I'm not saying that it is only women that are initiating the divorces. I'm simply saying that descision making is no longer centralised in the man only. The fact that both parties can say enough potentially has an influence on divorce rates too. In the past it was only the man who had to be satisfied and nothing would be done. Today if the woman isn't satisfied she has a way out. What would be interesting and very relevant to what I'm saying would be viewing divorces initiated by women. My cousin has been married twice and she ended both marriages.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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