Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
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01-09-2015, 05:02 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(01-09-2015 04:56 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why stop the reducing there?

I didn't say we should.

You really need to stop making assumptions about what other people think.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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01-09-2015, 05:07 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
Indeed, Unbeliever, I would suggest that our neuroscience has shown that the soul is not "in there", since damage to specific parts of the brain cause specific changes in personality.

If our souls/personalities were something "other", a duality, then that seems like an odd result.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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01-09-2015, 05:10 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(01-09-2015 05:02 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(01-09-2015 04:56 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why stop the reducing there?

I didn't say we should.

You really need to stop making assumptions about what other people think.

Okay, so you're not suggesting we should reduce it neurochemistry or physics.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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01-09-2015, 05:18 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(01-09-2015 05:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Okay, so you're not suggesting we should reduce it neurochemistry or physics.

Are you reading what I have posted, or are you just saying random things and hoping that something sticks?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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01-09-2015, 05:55 PM
Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(01-09-2015 05:18 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(01-09-2015 05:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Okay, so you're not suggesting we should reduce it neurochemistry or physics.

Are you reading what I have posted, or are you just saying random things and hoping that something sticks?

I guess I don't know what the hell you're suggesting or saying, since you didn't bother to really clarify.

Nor am sure what alternative to dualism should be accepted. Since no one seems willing to endorse physicalism either.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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01-09-2015, 05:59 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(01-09-2015 05:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Nor am sure what alternative to dualism should be accepted. Since no one seems willing to endorse physicalism either.

Everyone here seems perfectly willing. You just keep saying that no one does, and that it becomes a "self-parody"... because, apparently.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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01-09-2015, 06:11 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
@Tomasia

You should read my post again. I explained where and how self delusion and false belief arise and reproduce itself. Has for your question about atheism vs theism. I won't comment on all your question here since I don't think they are that relevent to dualism. But, if you want a few words on it. Here is what I think about theism vs atheism. To deconvert a theist you need him to know him and understand why he believes and what. Then you can try to guess what he woud need to change his mind. We can all change our mind (unless you are brain damaged, insane or otherwise incapacitated) provided we have the proper tools, knowledge and the proper support. Since I know absolutly nothing about you, your life, your desire, your interests, your knowledge and your faith I can't even tell why you believe let alone tell how I would attempt tto deconvert you should you be willing to submit yourself to the process.

PS: have you ever heard of reduction to the absurd. It's when you use a process, frenquently a misunderstood one, and build on its finding outside of its conclusion and application. It transform everything into pure non-sense. You are doing it right now with neuroscience.

PPS: What do you mean by free will and free thinker? What makes you think I consider myself a free thinker. I don't. I descrive myself has an atheist, feminist, cosmopolitan, keynasian, socio-democrate, utilitarian universalist, methodological naturalist, marxist historian. Is that not enough label for a single human being? I don't mind adding more they are pertinent, but I would like to know more about your Ā«free thinkerĀ».
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01-09-2015, 06:13 PM
Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(01-09-2015 05:59 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(01-09-2015 05:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Nor am sure what alternative to dualism should be accepted. Since no one seems willing to endorse physicalism either.

Everyone here seems perfectly willing. You just keep saying that no one does, and that it becomes a "self-parody"... because, apparently.

So do you believe physicalism is true. Or are you just willing to accept its true, but don't?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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01-09-2015, 06:57 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2015 07:04 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(01-09-2015 06:13 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-09-2015 05:59 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Everyone here seems perfectly willing. You just keep saying that no one does, and that it becomes a "self-parody"... because, apparently.

So do you believe physicalism is true. Or are you just willing to accept its true, but don't?

I could be wrong, TomInAsia, but I don't recall any discussion of physicalism, let alone anyone accepting or rejecting it. And dualism and physicalism aren't the only alternatives. We would also have to discuss idealism and neutral monism.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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01-09-2015, 08:28 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(01-09-2015 06:57 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(01-09-2015 06:13 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  So do you believe physicalism is true. Or are you just willing to accept its true, but don't?


I could be wrong, TomInAsia, but I don't recall any discussion of physicalism, let alone anyone accepting or rejecting it. And dualism and physicalism aren't the only alternatives. We would also have to discuss idealism and neutral monism.

Far as I know neutral monism went out of vogue somewhere in the mid 1900s.

I'm curious as to what position folks here who don't subscribe to some form of dualism, including property dualism, subscribe to.

If the OP is wondering why people are unwilling to let go of a belief in dualism, what viable alternative do people here think is compelling enough to take it's place? A position you yourself hold, rather than just flirt with.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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