Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
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01-09-2015, 08:37 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
@Tomasia

Actually, has I mentionned before, the debate isn't about property dualism which I must admit I could adhere to (I am more of an emergent materialist), but about substance dualism. It's mentionned in the title. More importantly the debate turn around the idea of souls.
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01-09-2015, 08:45 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(01-09-2015 08:28 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm curious as to what position folks here who don't subscribe to some form of dualism, including property dualism, subscribe to.

Property dualism is not incompatible with materialism.

(01-09-2015 08:28 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If the OP is wondering why people are unwilling to let go of a belief in dualism, what viable alternative do people here think is compelling enough to take it's place?

Materialism.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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01-09-2015, 08:47 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2015 08:56 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(01-09-2015 08:28 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Far as I know neutral monism went out of vogue somewhere in the mid 1900s.

Unlike dualism which pretty much went of vogue as soon as Descartes suggested the pineal gland was the mechanism of interaction and mediation between the mind and body. Dafuq that come from René? Hobo

One main problem with dualism is what sorta mechanism could possibly enable this interaction between the mind and the body? Is it mind? Is it body? Is it both? What the fuck could it be if not the pineal gland? Come up with a plausible mechanism of interaction between mind and body and you will have resurrected dualism. Many have tried. All have failed. Physicalism, idealism, and neutral monism all make more sense and have better supporting arguments than dualism.

#sigh
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01-09-2015, 09:04 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(01-09-2015 08:47 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  ...idealism, and neutral monism all make more sense and have better supporting arguments than dualism.

Mneeeehhhhh. They're semi-coherent ideas, anyway, rather than just saying "it's matter, up until a vague point where it becomes sorta magic". There really isn't any merit to them, but they are, at least, properly defined.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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01-09-2015, 09:11 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
IMHO it all falls upon the fear of death. Accept that death is the end of self and the need for dualism falls flat.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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01-09-2015, 09:57 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
As I said before, I think the strongest evidence against dualism (at least, dualism of body and spirit-energy) comes from the fact that damage to a specific region of the brain causes specific types of changes in personality; this is indicative of a multi-processor computer which can still function despite damaged regions, not a single, unified "spirit" (or soul) that creates our unique personality.

http://www.braininjury.com/symptoms.shtml

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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01-09-2015, 10:26 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2015 10:44 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(01-09-2015 09:57 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  As I said before, I think the strongest evidence against dualism (at least, dualism of body and spirit-energy) comes from the fact that damage to a specific region of the brain causes specific types of changes in personality; this is indicative of a multi-processor computer which can still function despite damaged regions, not a single, unified "spirit" (or soul) that creates our unique personality.

I read it when you said it before DrRocket. I'm not convinced that it is strong evidence against dualism. The problem I'm having with it is I don't know what to make of a counterexample of a stroke victim whose Wernicke or Broca area are devastated and yet they regain the ability to speak. Not sure what to make of that. Different areas of the brain picked up the slack. How the fuck that happen? Don't know what that means metaphysically but I'm not sure it is a particularly strong argument against dualism.

#sigh
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02-09-2015, 06:12 AM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(01-09-2015 08:45 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(01-09-2015 08:28 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm curious as to what position folks here who don't subscribe to some form of dualism, including property dualism, subscribe to.

Property dualism is not incompatible with materialism.

(01-09-2015 08:28 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If the OP is wondering why people are unwilling to let go of a belief in dualism, what viable alternative do people here think is compelling enough to take it's place?

Materialism.

But is that Physicalism (Materialistic Monism), or Property Dualism that you believe?

Property Dualism puts you in the camp with the Nagels and the Chalmers, were Physicalism puts you on the camp of Coynes, Dennetts, and Rosenbergs of the world. I'm trying to get a clearer idea as to where you stand.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-09-2015, 06:20 AM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(01-09-2015 10:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(01-09-2015 09:57 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  As I said before, I think the strongest evidence against dualism (at least, dualism of body and spirit-energy) comes from the fact that damage to a specific region of the brain causes specific types of changes in personality; this is indicative of a multi-processor computer which can still function despite damaged regions, not a single, unified "spirit" (or soul) that creates our unique personality.

I read it when you said it before DrRocket. I'm not convinced that it is strong evidence against dualism. The problem I'm having with it is I don't know what to make of a counterexample of a stroke victim whose Wernicke or Broca area are devastated and yet they regain the ability to speak. Not sure what to make of that. Different areas of the brain picked up the slack. How the fuck that happen? Don't know what that means metaphysically but I'm not sure it is a particularly strong argument against dualism.

It's a process called brain plasticity. A very intersting field in neuroscience. We are still working on it.
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02-09-2015, 06:32 AM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(02-09-2015 06:12 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-09-2015 08:45 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Property dualism is not incompatible with materialism.


Materialism.

But is that Physicalism (Materialistic Monism), or Property Dualism that you believe?

Property Dualism puts you in the camp with the Nagels and the Chalmers, were Physicalism puts you on the camp of Coynes, Dennetts, and Rosenbergs of the world. I'm trying to get a clearer idea as to where you stand.

That doesn't have any impact on substance dualism which is the the thing that has been debunked and discussed here. If you believe in Property Dualism, you don't beleive Substance Dualism which we refered to has Dualism since the former also sit in the middle of the road with emergent materialism.
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