Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
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13-01-2016, 09:17 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(13-01-2016 08:55 PM)coyote Wrote:  If you assume ki to be associated with the supernatural, then you are correct.
I don't make that assumption. I accept that the combination of thought, intention, and focus may indeed result in an energy flow (ki) within the body. Given that all matter is energy (according to quantum physics), ki becomes entirely possible within the realm of the natural. Given that the placebo effect you cite has demonstrable and predictable results, dismissing it as mere placebo effect almost borders on a denial of reality.

First,

HELLO! Big Grin

So, to post a comment on your comment.

Lets start with 'Ki'. Other than something that is supernatural... what might 'Ki' then be if it is some how natural?

Moving onto your other things. Within the body there's electrical impulses and chemical signals. I'm pretty sure that's it. nothing more, nothing less. If you know of anything, please I'm more than happy to read/learn. Smile

Your 'Quantum' reference? I think you're conflating Einstein's beautiful equation E=Mc(Squared).

So, while it is true that "When anything traveling faster than 3 Km/s impacts, then it pretty much converts itself directly into 'BLAM'." that.. isn't what is happening within the human body.

As for the Placebo effect' (Also a not too shabby a band, either) as science studies it more and more... then eventually it will be known as something/other effect as... like a lot of things, Willow bark into Aspirin etc, that's science. Smile

So, to recap my ramblings (Been a hot day here) perchance might you be able to offer some definition of 'Ki'?

Do you now have a better inkling of the physics about which you're chatting about?

Much cheers to yourself.
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13-01-2016, 10:17 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
Hello! Thanks for the greeting.
I provided my definition of ki. The classic definition is simplified as "life energy", and all I'm saying is that a supernatural component is unnecessary to accept it simply as energy.

Willow bark does not equal healing. Willow bark, and its 'distillate' called aspirin, are mere remedies for symptoms. Cut yourself accidentally while carving the Thanksgiving turkey? You might go wash the cut, you might apply a salve and/or disinfectant, you might apply a bandage, etc. But guess what? Your body requires none of those things. The cut will, on its own, clot and cease bleeding. Your body will then mend that cut, and the external clot at stopped the bleeding and served as protection for the healing process will then fall away. And often, the healing will be so complete that there isn't even a visible scar. Your body does all that by redirecting its own energy flows. Cells sense (electrically, chemically) various local conditions - and change their behavior to respond to those conditions. Electrical energy, chemical energy.... life energy??

The placebo effect is entirely one of thought and intent. The subject imagines he's been supplied with a chemical that will heal him. His mind (perhaps his subconscious programming) responds to that by prompting the body to begin its natural energy realignment, its healing process. Did you know that the effect has been demonstrated to go beyond pills? It's been demonstrated that "going to the doctor", on its own, generates that effect!

That is science, just as much as the discovery of the effects of various natural substances including willow bark.

Look, I get why many atheists eschew anything that smacks of 'spirit' or the supernatural. For myself, I try to see where these items emerged in history and trace them back to the natural.

I'm a musician. And we musicians have a goofy thing about amplifiers: they contain "magic smoke". And they work fine unless you abuse them, and thereby let the "magic smoke" escape! We all know that description is nonsensical. Yet it serves as a useful metaphor for the reality.... and if that's all you 'knew' about how they work, even though it's not exactly accurate from a technical standpoint it would be a useful guide in keeping your amp working correctly.

Ki. It works as metaphor, and perhaps even as a simplified description of reality. Going back to the thread title and your inclusion of Einstein's famous equation, isn't it ultimately true that the duality of matter/energy are really one and the same?

Just musing out loud really. Thanks for the welcome Smile
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13-01-2016, 11:09 PM (This post was last modified: 13-01-2016 11:13 PM by Peebothuhul.)
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
Hope you don't mind if I break your reply to my reply of your reply into smaller bit?

(13-01-2016 10:17 PM)coyote Wrote:  Hello! Thanks for the greeting.
I provided my definition of ki. The classic definition is simplified as "life energy", and all I'm saying is that a supernatural component is unnecessary to accept it simply as energy.

Okay... but now might you please offer a definition of what ever 'Life energy' is?

(13-01-2016 10:17 PM)coyote Wrote:  Willow bark does not equal healing. Willow bark, and its 'distillate' called aspirin, are mere remedies for symptoms.

Um... pardon? While I think I understand what your comment is saying.. it's.. kind of wrong. Also, it's missing the point. My example (And probably a poor analogy) was to say that where once we used willow bark with out really understanding what was going on... in today's world we use 'Asprin' (Yes, I know there's a more technical, correct term) to treat a whole range of actual illnesses... not just 'symptoms'. Ask folks taking aspirin to aid in their heart problems.

(13-01-2016 10:17 PM)coyote Wrote:  Cut yourself accidentally while carving the Thanksgiving turkey? You might go wash the cut, you might apply a salve and/or disinfectant, you might apply a bandage, etc. But guess what? Your body requires none of those things. The cut will, on its own, clot and cease bleeding. Your body will then mend that cut, and the external clot at stopped the bleeding and served as protection for the healing process will then fall away. And often, the healing will be so complete that there isn't even a visible scar.

Okay and on one hand I kind of apologize for this BUT,

Facepalm

Right, as a trained, professional (Now retired) window fixer (Correct technical term is 'Glazier') that above statement is so.. it's beyond wrong.

When you slice through your epidermis quite often the initial shock and Adrenalin instantly take over hence there's no pain. HOWEVER! Unless the thing doing the slicing into the tissues beneath is INCREDIBLY sharp? You will feel pain as the specific nerves that have become damaged then automatically send their signals which register within the brain.

Having pretty much lost a finger (Yay modern micro surgery Bowing ) I can definitely tell you that glass is so incredibly sharp that there is no nerve damage, hence NO pain. The nerve are severed so cleanly... they aren't in a state to send ANYTHING off to the brain. So you're left looking at this wound leaking copious amounts of blood and having various parts of your brain doing many varied things none of which is registering 'pain'.

As for the healing? Clotting is a passive thing. Everything the body does.. other than the nerves and electrical impulses and muscle spasms is PASSIVE. (Note! Professionals and educated people please feel free to correct/respond to such a claim)

Again all I can convey is a Facepalm at the 'Happy, fluffy' terminology you've posted. Only if the cut is incredibly clean and the instrument exceptionally (As in surgically) sharp will there be 'No scare'. Heck, even with surgical steel, there is still scarring.

That scarring? It's the passive systems in the body NOT doing a bang up job of putting things back the way they were. Heck, this isn't even covering bone breaking or cartilage damage.

Make the cut clean enough? With something sharp enough? Your body's systems of clotting will NOT kick in in enough time to stop you dying from bleeding out. Have a chat with professional kitchen workers. They'll have doozies of tales of people almost dying from sharp implement damage to extremities. No limb or torso wounds there.

(13-01-2016 10:17 PM)coyote Wrote:  Your body does all that by redirecting its own energy flows. Cells sense (electrically, chemically) various local conditions - and change their behavior to respond to those conditions. Electrical energy, chemical energy.... life energy??

No.. even with my blue collar education I'm conversant enough with things to know that's all pretty much new age woo. Electrical impulses (NOT electrical energy) and chemical bond energy are whole orders of magnitude lower than E=Mc(squared). Again, as I'm pretty sure I'm correct in stating, every thing your body generally does is passive. No reactions. I might have missed white blood cells... Consider

But clotting? Cell regrowth? All passive.

Still, please offer an idea as to what 'Life energy' might be. Smile

(13-01-2016 10:17 PM)coyote Wrote:  The placebo effect is entirely one of thought and intent. The subject imagines he's been supplied with a chemical that will heal him. His mind (perhaps his subconscious programming) responds to that by prompting the body to begin its natural energy realignment, its healing process. Did you know that the effect has been demonstrated to go beyond pills? It's been demonstrated that "going to the doctor", on its own, generates that effect!

That is science, just as much as the discovery of the effects of various natural substances including willow bark.

Um.. no.

That's more an anecdote followed by an opinion.

(13-01-2016 10:17 PM)coyote Wrote:  Look, I get why many atheists eschew anything that smacks of 'spirit' or the supernatural. For myself, I try to see where these items emerged in history and trace them back to the natural.

*Shrug* I don't eschew things that have inclines of 'spirit' or supernatural. I like reading Tolkien and watching Star Wars. Tongue

However, when I'm seriously, deeply thinking about the reality around me? Then Star Wars and Orcs don't help. Pretty much because they do nothing to help further understanding about the reality I'm trying to come to grips with.

(13-01-2016 10:17 PM)coyote Wrote:  I'm a musician. And we musicians have a goofy thing about amplifiers: they contain "magic smoke". And they work fine unless you abuse them, and thereby let the "magic smoke" escape! We all know that description is nonsensical. Yet it serves as a useful metaphor for the reality.... and if that's all you 'knew' about how they work, even though it's not exactly accurate from a technical standpoint it would be a useful guide in keeping your amp working correctly.

Hey, Banjo on the forum is a musician as well. They're into drums. I hope you and they cross posts and hit it off. Big Grin

(13-01-2016 10:17 PM)coyote Wrote:  Ki. It works as metaphor, and perhaps even as a simplified description of reality. Going back to the thread title and your inclusion of Einstein's famous equation, isn't it ultimately true that the duality of matter/energy are really one and the same?

Technically? That is not what the equation is saying.

It's not saying that they are one and the same. it's saying they are 'interchangeable'. For a better explanation I'd ask some one of a better educated back ground to step in and offer. (Mainly so I can get an even better handle on understanding the subject myself Tongue )

Hence my follow on quote of "Anything that's travelling faster than 3 Km/s on impact converts itself into 'BLAM"."

Take a lump of metal. At rest.. it's pretty much just got mass. Accelerate that mass up to 'just' three kilometers per second and then, what ever that mass of metal (Heck, technically it could be anything solid... even a liquid if you could hold it together... but I segway/digress) intersects with? The mass PLUS the velocity all converts into energy (The 'Silver bullet of an Abrams tank in action)

The human body has nothing within it that does anything like this.

The corollary to the above 'BLAM" quote is;

"Any space ship engine worthy of serious interest? Is also an interestingly serious weapon."

(13-01-2016 10:17 PM)coyote Wrote:  Just musing out loud really. Thanks for the welcome Smile

Hug

No worries. Sorry if I come across snarky. A long day in 100 + deg heat and high humidity does not make Peebo a happy Thulhu. Smile
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13-01-2016, 11:19 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(13-01-2016 08:55 PM)coyote Wrote:  If you assume ki to be associated with the supernatural, then you are correct.
I don't make that assumption. I accept that the combination of thought, intention, and focus may indeed result in an energy flow (ki) within the body. Given that all matter is energy (according to quantum physics), ki becomes entirely possible within the realm of the natural. Given that the placebo effect you cite has demonstrable and predictable results, dismissing it as mere placebo effect almost borders on a denial of reality.

It's all woo. There is not a shred of scientific evidence for any "flow of energy" resulting from "intention, thought or focus". Matter may be energy, but first it must be changed. Thus the fact is irrelevant. You have not told us how energy is changed into matter, or vise-versa, in the body. The statement is a smokescreen to hide woo. You have not a shred of evidence for this woo.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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14-01-2016, 06:24 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(13-01-2016 10:17 PM)coyote Wrote:  I provided my definition of ki. The classic definition is simplified as "life energy"

This isn't a definition as the last two terms make no sense as they have been used. Living organisms (most of them) use macronutrients (carbohydrates, protiens and lipids) to produce ATP. It's very impressive but all biochemical. Anybody waving nebulous terms like "life energy" about is typically trying to disguise the fact that what they're talking about is a complete load of bilge water.

Quote:and all I'm saying is that a supernatural component is unnecessary to accept it simply as energy.

Excellent! That makes it easy to quantify and measure. The experiments have been run and the results are in. Care to guess how much affect prayer, ki and wishful thinking had?

Quote:You might go wash the cut, you might apply a salve and/or disinfectant, you might apply a bandage, etc. But guess what? Your body requires none of those things. The cut will, on its own, clot and cease bleeding. Your body will then mend that cut, and the external clot at stopped the bleeding and served as protection for the healing process will then fall away.

No, but they assist. Having watched a few fools come down with blood poisoning from what would have been otherwise trivial cuts I highly reccomend the washing, antiseptic and bandage.

Quote:Going back to the thread title and your inclusion of Einstein's famous equation, isn't it ultimately true that the duality of matter/energy are really one and the same?

In one sense, yes, matter is just one form of energy. In a much more realistic sense, it is wise to discriminate between the various different types of matter and energy available. Failure to do so might lead one to the conclusion that the fastest way to heal the boo-boo on their pinkie would be to stick it into the core of an active nuclear reactor. On the plus side, this therapy would ensure that the cut on your finger was no longer a concern.

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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14-01-2016, 09:33 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(13-01-2016 08:55 PM)coyote Wrote:  
(13-01-2016 01:36 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Yes, we do.


Definitely not.


No, it doesn't. Perhaps the concepts traditionally associated with it do - meditation, for example, may have some beneficial effect - but ki itself? No. Because ki does not exist. The absolute most that it can do is apply the placebo effect.

Or it simply acts as some sort of comfort for them, which is what I said to begin with.
.

If you assume ki to be associated with the supernatural, then you are correct.
I don't make that assumption. I accept that the combination of thought, intention, and focus may indeed result in an energy flow (ki) within the body. Given that all matter is energy (according to quantum physics), ki becomes entirely possible within the realm of the natural. Given that the placebo effect you cite has demonstrable and predictable results, dismissing it as mere placebo effect almost borders on a denial of reality.

Please identify, qualify, and quantify said 'energy flow'. Consider

There is no 'energy flow' in the body other than chemical reactions taking place in cells.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-01-2016, 10:24 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(14-01-2016 09:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no 'energy flow' in the body other than chemical reactions taking place in cells.

That is flat-out wrong. Please tell be how an electrocardiogram works. What does it measure? How does it perform that measurement?

Go walk across a carpet. Now touch a steel railing. What happens?

How do pacemakers work?

No, there is more than mere chemical reaction in our body. There is quite literally electric current, sufficient in fact to power a 15 watt bulb. And it can be directed.
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14-01-2016, 11:32 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(14-01-2016 10:24 PM)coyote Wrote:  
(14-01-2016 09:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no 'energy flow' in the body other than chemical reactions taking place in cells.

That is flat-out wrong. Please tell be how an electrocardiogram works. What does it measure? How does it perform that measurement?

Go walk across a carpet. Now touch a steel railing. What happens?

How do pacemakers work?

No, there is more than mere chemical reaction in our body. There is quite literally electric current, sufficient in fact to power a 15 watt bulb. And it can be directed.

OK, so why call it Ki, with attached woo implications, rather than the more precise descriptions that e.g. a doctor would use?

Also this... ability to direct current and power a 15 Watt bulb - I assume you have some kind of reference to back up this claim?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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14-01-2016, 11:46 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(14-01-2016 10:24 PM)coyote Wrote:  
(14-01-2016 09:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no 'energy flow' in the body other than chemical reactions taking place in cells.

That is flat-out wrong. Please tell be how an electrocardiogram works. What does it measure? How does it perform that measurement?

Go walk across a carpet. Now touch a steel railing. What happens?

How do pacemakers work?

No, there is more than mere chemical reaction in our body. There is quite literally electric current, sufficient in fact to power a 15 watt bulb. And it can be directed.

What do you think creates those charges? Chemical reactions.
There is no other source of energy in the body.
No qi.
No élan vital.
No life force.
There is only chemistry.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-01-2016, 11:48 PM
RE: Substance dualism, why is it still a thing?
(14-01-2016 10:24 PM)coyote Wrote:  
(14-01-2016 09:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no 'energy flow' in the body other than chemical reactions taking place in cells.

That is flat-out wrong. Please tell be how an electrocardiogram works. What does it measure? How does it perform that measurement?

Go walk across a carpet. Now touch a steel railing. What happens?

How do pacemakers work?

No, there is more than mere chemical reaction in our body. There is quite literally electric current, sufficient in fact to power a 15 watt bulb. And it can be directed.

Those examples you listed are just chemical reactions. Simple transfer of electrons. Nothing special about them.
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